Fake Nordstrand bass

[MarkoYYZ]

I'm gathering that this is not illegal in China and if they sell them to other countries that don't comply with international trade laws it's not illegal at all. If you chose to import it into the US you are then breaking the law. Does that sound correct?

This is correct. Templar is pointing fingers at foreign companies violating US laws... outside the US... an entirely futile exercise.

That's when you shrug and realize you don't combat this in China, you combat this with the consumer here who spends time surfing alibaba.com looking for bargain basement deals on foreign products. I'm not pointing the finger at the OP necessarily because I've done that browse myself... not with the intention of buying these basses but to get a handle on the number of factories and cost range involved. I've now taken that several steps further and have been to see them first hand, so my earlier post on pg 1 is not just supposition, it's a first hand account of what exists.

You have to have a clear understanding of the bigger picture before you formulate your opinions, so I shared that info not to argue with anybody, but to add as much understanding of actual fact as I can. What people choose to do with that info is out of my hands, but I'm heartened to see that Carey himself has chimed in and is willing to look at the bigger picture and explain to us what he - the affected party - feels about the issue.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Thanks marko good input

 

[Iridescentone]

This is correct. Templar is pointing fingers at foreign companies violating US laws... outside the US... an entirely futile exercise.

That's when you shrug and realize you don't combat this in China, you combat this with the consumer here who spends time surfing alibaba.com looking for bargain basement deals on foreign products. I'm not pointing the finger at the OP necessarily because I've done that browse myself... not with the intention of buying these basses but to get a handle on the number of factories and cost range involved. I've now taken that several steps further and have been to see them first hand, so my earlier post on pg 1 is not just supposition, it's a first hand account of what exists.

You have to have a clear understanding of the bigger picture before you formulate your opinions, so I shared that info not to argue with anybody, but to add as much understanding of actual fact as I can. What people choose to do with that info is out of my hands, but I'm heartened to see that Carey himself has chimed in and is willing to look at the bigger picture and explain to us what he - the affected party - feels about the issue.

Um..not exactly. I'm also pointing fingers at corrupt agencies whose job is to protect US patents and copyrights from rogue countries seeking to exploit said corruption. There is no "combatting this in China", nor has anyone suggested that. Red China is a sovereign nation and free to do as they please. That said, they are a sworn enemy of the West, and always have been. What is "futile", and moreover defeatist, is acting as an apologist for those whom, if given the chance, would see to it that our entire way of life would cease to exist. That....is "the Big Picture".

Shifting the blame to the end consumer is wrong. Their job is to do the best that they can as consumers, by getting the best value for their money. It is not their burden to enforce policies or laws. They (we) pay others to do that for us. Therein lies the problem IMO....

 

[MarkoYYZ]

If you honestly think "Red China" is the "sworn enemy of the west" then it's no wonder you feel the way you do. I think you're entirely wrong to believe this, and agree that the west does indeed have sworn enemies - they are just located elsewhere. China is no longer the "Red" presence it one was and people in the west need to understand that the communist party in China really has nothing to do with implementing socialism and everything to do with providing a firm hand in charge of a population of 1.3 BILLION people.

Imagine taking the the 330 million people in the US, with the amount of land and wealth and resources it has, amd adding in another billion people. That's essentially what you have and with all of those 1.3 billion willing to work hard to make money, to get ahead... the value of each life is lower and the competition to succeed is higher. I'm NOT saying that a totalitarian government is right and they certainly do a lot of things that we in the west feel are ethically wrong, but I understand where the need for a high level of control comes from. They are super super super capitalist as a people, to the point that unfettered capitalism would resuld in the 2009 financial meltdown being an almost yearly occurence, with entire provinces rising and falling within years or decades - and that clearly not a way to help run a country long term.

Today, being in competition with China as the world's #1 and #2 economies is entirely different than being "enemies". The symbiotic relationship we have with China (or the far east) is part of what keep the geopolictical balance in our favor with the more genuine enemies, but that's a whole different discussion for a different board, I think, and I don't particularly want to derail this thread any further.

I wasn't shifting the blame entirely to the consumer, I'm trying to clarify that it's not a one-or-the-other option. One cannot exist without the other, so the reason it happens is because both parties make it possible. A proton is a useless thing without a neutron to define it as whay it is, and vice versa.

 

[Iridescentone]

If you honestly think "Red China" is the "sworn enemy of the west" then it's no wonder you feel the way you do. I think you're entirely wrong to believe this, and agree that the west does indeed have sworn enemies - they are just located elsewhere. China is no longer the "Red" presence it one was and people in the west need to understand that the communist party in China really has nothing to do with implementing socialism and everything to do with providing a firm hand in charge of a population of 1.3 BILLION people.

Imagine taking the the 330 million people in the US, with the amount of land and wealth and resources it has, amd adding in another billion people. That's essentially what you have and with all of those 1.3 billion willing to work hard to make money, to get ahead... the value of each life is lower and the competition to succeed is higher. I'm NOT saying that a totalitarian government is right and they certainly do a lot of things that we in the west feel are ethically wrong, but I understand where the need for a high level of control comes from. They are super super super capitalist as a people, to the point that unfettered capitalism would resuld in the 2009 financial meltdown being an almost yearly occurence, with entire provinces rising and falling within years or decades - and that clearly not a way to help run a country long term.

Today, being in competition with China as the world's #1 and #2 economies is entirely different than being "enemies". The symbiotic relationship we have with China (or the far east) is part of what keep the geopolictical balance in our favor with the more genuine enemies, but that's a whole different discussion for a different board, I think, and I don't particularly want to derail this thread any further.

I wasn't shifting the blame entirely to the consumer, I'm trying to clarify that it's not a one-or-the-other option. One cannot exist without the other, so the reason it happens is because both parties make it possible. A proton is a useless thing without a neutron to define it as whay it is, and vice versa.

Sell that to the folks in Hong Kong. Or Viet Nam, Japan, and everyone else in the area under threat from China and their cats-paw, North Korea.

 

[nostatic]

Have you ever been to "Red China", dealt with the people, the companies, or the government?

There is a saying. If I owe you a little money, I'm in trouble. If I owe you a lot of money, you're in trouble. We owe a lot of money to China. Destroying us doesn't help their long view.

 

[nostatic]

Imagine taking the the 330 million people in the US, with the amount of land and wealth and resources it has, amd adding in another billion people. That's essentially what you have and with all of those 1.3 billion willing to work hard to make money, to get ahead... the value of each life is lower and the competition to succeed is higher. I'm NOT saying that a totalitarian government is right and they certainly do a lot of things that we in the west feel are ethically wrong, but I understand where the need for a high level of control comes from. They are super super super capitalist as a people, to the point that unfettered capitalism would resuld in the 2009 financial meltdown being an almost yearly occurence, with entire provinces rising and falling within years or decades - and that clearly not a way to help run a country long term.

^^^ this. In actual practice, China is far more capitalist than the US. We just talk the talk...

Back in the mid 00's I was working on a project with the Ministry of Education in China to create games to help teach English to middle school students. If you want to get into the numbers game, China has over 300K K-12 students. In other words, imagine having to teach the entire population of the US at the same time. They start English instruction early (especially in the big cities) yet don't have native speakers. Talk about a challenge. China is a patient country, unlike the "want it now" US culture. They take the long view. They are deeply flawed in some ways, but that describes every country in one way or another.

 

[wraub]

They are not the original ones that some of you guys are seeking for...

 

[Iridescentone]

Have you ever been to "Red China", dealt with the people, the companies, or the government?

There is a saying. If I owe you a little money, I'm in trouble. If I owe you a lot of money, you're in trouble. We owe a lot of money to China. Destroying us doesn't help their long view.

Do you pay attention to global current events? Do you not suppose that China will act militarily against our allies in the region when the time is right? Do you suppose they're greatly increasing their military and navy just to have parades and enjoy pride of ownership?

Do you think an enemy only wants to "destroy" their adversary? Or would they rather greatly "diminish" them, and redirect their former power and economic strength to their own coffers? This is already happening. China now has the world's largest economy. Keep an eye on the IMF, if they replace the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency we could be in deep ****.

 

[Iridescentone]

Back in the mid 00's I was working on a project with the Ministry of Education in China to create games to help teach English to middle school students. If you want to get into the numbers game, China has over 300K K-12 students. In other words, imagine having to teach the entire population of the US at the same time. They start English instruction early (especially in the big cities) yet don't have native speakers. Talk about a challenge. China is a patient country, unlike the "want it now" US culture. They take the long view. They are deeply flawed in some ways, but that describes every country in one way or another.

Yes, much can be achieved under a totalitarian regime, where everything is either prohibited or compulsory. I doubt any of us will enjoy living in such a society.

"Remember, Tuesday is Soylent Green day."

 

[petrus61]

Gibson's been doing it for years. Making instruments that look exactly like Kramers, putting Kramer on the headstock and trying to pass them off as quality, OEM Kramers.

Not for nothing, but Kramer was nothing more then a name for other builders to use long before Gibson came along. The "real" Kramers with the "Made in Neptune, NJ" plates? Not made in Neptune, NJ. The only thing that was in Neptune were the Kramer corporate offices and they certainly weren't building guitars there. Same exact thing with Ibanez and a very long list of others. The name is licensed and contracted to builders that have nothing to do with the actual corporation.

 

[MarkoYYZ]

Yes, much can be achieved under a totalitarian regime, where everything is either prohibited or compulsory. I doubt any of us will enjoy living in such a society.

Here's the thing, though. Every country has some things that are either prohibited or compulsory. A lot of Americans look down at Canada and think we're more socialist, but the fact of the matter is that the US has far more things that are either prohibited or compulsory than we do. There is far more red tape and regulation on your side of the border, and all those things you fight for in terms of individual freedoms (health care, schools, guns, etc...) actually leave you with a net negative. China is a lot less totalitarian than people think and people are required to either make an effort to support themselves or be poor - there are no free rides. Individuals pay for schools, for health care, road and bridge tolls. Public transit is pay as you go.

They do have problems with corruption, with freedom of information, with freedom to speak your mind, or with freedom to live in any city or state that you want - but China is nothing like Soviet Russia or the Eastern Bloc countries where it really was a soul crushing place to live. Where having an extra cow to milk was a crime, and not reporting your neighbor's individual success was a crime as well. The Chinese are free to start a business, to drive whatever car they can afford, to send their kids to elite schools, to travel abroad for business and for pleasure...

It's not like Canada or the US don't have our own problems of a different sort, where jails are private enterprises that local governments have promised to keep full in order to create jobs and tax revenues, where you have to be a corrupt millionaire to have a chance at being elected, where you can be charged for protecting your own home. Every country has its flaws, but if we were to make a list of countries in terms of being closest to our western ideals, there are a whole lot of countries that would be fill up the lower part of the list below China. Like half of the list.

Complaining about China laying claim to the Daiyou Islands or flexing its muscles in their own region is an obvious bit of hypocrisy, Templar. Do you think the rest of the world is entirely happy with the way the US acts outside of its own borders? Military might is there for influence, more than for actual use, but if it comes to the use of force in protecting interests of territories or regions for strategic purposes, the US is the last one in a moral position to cry foul. There is no country in the world that is involved in more espionage, sabotage and/or strategic influence of foreign nations.

Please don't misunderstand, the US and Canada are still the best places in the world, IMO. I have a lot of love and respect for both countries, but we are not without our faults and if we're going to start pointing fingers at others for their faults, there are many places that I would focus my attention on before China - a country which of course has faults of its own. China is far more likely to be an ally to the US than an enemy, if something big happens between the west and Islam, or the west and an emboldened Russia under Putin. The economic co-dependency guarantees it, as well as their atheism.

 

[Iridescentone]

Here's the thing, though. Every country has some things that are either prohibited or compulsory. A lot of Americans look down at Canada and think we're more socialist, but the fact of the matter is that the US has far more things that are either prohibited or compulsory than we do. There is far more red tape and regulation on your side of the border, and all those things you fight for in terms of individual freedoms (health care, schools, guns, etc...) actually leave you with a net negative. China is a lot less totalitarian than people think and people are required to either make an effort to support themselves or be poor - there are no free rides. Individuals pay for schools, for health care, road and bridge tolls. Public transit is pay as you go.

They do have problems with corruption, with freedom of information, with freedom to speak your mind, or with freedom to live in any city or state that you want - but China is nothing like Soviet Russia or the Eastern Bloc countries where it really was a soul crushing place to live. Where having an extra cow to milk was a crime, and not reporting your neighbor's individual success was a crime as well. The Chinese are free to start a business, to drive whatever car they can afford, to send their kids to elite schools, to travel abroad for business and for pleasure...

It's not like Canada or the US don't have our own problems of a different sort, where jails are private enterprises that local governments have promised to keep full in order to create jobs and tax revenues, where you have to be a corrupt millionaire to have a chance at being elected, where you can be charged for protecting your own home. Every country has its flaws, but if we were to make a list of countries in terms of being closest to our western ideals, there are a whole lot of countries that would be fill up the lower part of the list below China. Like half of the list.

Complaining about China laying claim to the Daiyou Islands or flexing its muscles in their own region is an obvious bit of hypocrisy, Templar. Do you think the rest of the world is entirely happy with the way the US acts outside of its own borders? Military might is there for influence, more than for actual use, but if it comes to the use of force in protecting interests of territories or regions for strategic purposes, the US is the last one in a moral position to cry foul. There is no country in the world that is involved in more espionage, sabotage and/or strategic influence of foreign nations.

Please don't misunderstand, the US and Canada are still the best places in the world, IMO. I have a lot of love and respect for both countries, but we are not without our faults and if we're going to start pointing fingers at others for their faults, there are many places that I would focus my attention on before China - a country which of course has faults of its own. China is far more likely to be an ally to the US than an enemy, if something big happens between the west and Islam, or the west and an emboldened Russia under Putin. The economic co-dependency guarantees it, as well as their atheism.

Wow, how much Kool aide did you drink over there? You've managed to completely blur the line between apologist and propagandist.

Regardless, you're now talking pure politics, which is verboten around here. We'll just have to accept our polar-opposite weltanschauung.

Over and out...

 

[MarkoYYZ]

You've managed to completely blur the line between apologist and propagandist.

Pot, kettle. I've actually been there - have you?

We'll just have to accept our polar-opposite weltanschauung.

Respectfully agreed. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be personal in any way and no slight intended by offering an opposing viewpoint.

Also over and out.

 

[nostatic]

Do you pay attention to global current events?

Yes. For my day job I work on DoD funded projects, was an invited speaker earlier this year for events at AUSA and Ft. Eustis, am working a project looking at technology involvement in 2025 global threats, and have lost track of the number of Army flag officers I've briefed recently (including the CSA). So I try to keep up to date

In addition, my wife was a student leader in Hong Kong and traveled to Beijing in '89 to join the protests in Tiananmen. Then the shooting started. Luckily she got out alive and is now a US citizen. So I have some interesting perspectives on "Red China", but from her personal experiences, my personal experiences, and my day-to-day work rather than the blogosphere. I'm curious how you get your situational awareness on foreign affairs.

 

[Iridescentone]

Yes. For my day job I work on DoD funded projects, was an invited speaker earlier this year for events at AUSA and Ft. Eustis, am working a project looking at technology involvement in 2025 global threats, and have lost track of the number of Army flag officers I've briefed recently (including the CSA). So I try to keep up to date

In addition, my wife was a student leader in Hong Kong and traveled to Beijing in '89 to join the protests in Tiananmen. Then the shooting started. Luckily she got out alive and is now a US citizen. So I have some interesting perspectives on "Red China", but from her personal experiences, my personal experiences, and my day-to-day work rather than the blogosphere. I'm curious how you get your situational awareness on foreign affairs.

I'm happy for your wife, but I said I'm out. This thread has gone political, and I don't need any more warnings from forum admins.






[/QUOTE]

 

[IGotGas]

To me the REALLY sad thing is a report I received from a buddy who is an Extremely legit boutique builder (Red Rocket Guitars) who was at Summer NAMM. In one of the side rooms, there was a rather large booth with some Chinese fellows who just made no bones about it: they had very obvious clones with what appeared to be decent paint/finishes for sale at $114 delivered. They even told him they will put Fender, Gibson or Ric stickers on the headstock etc.

Why in the hell would the organizers of NAMM allow such a thing? My buddy almost wound up in jail after talking to those guys...