I think it is ironic they are knocking off a $249 olp bass for $215. I paid $200 for mine with a GC coupon.
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Fake Nordstrand bass
- Thread starter bungletrpg
- Start date
Hopkins
Commercial User
Of course it would, they wouldnt be trying to leach off the reputation established by another builder and they wouldn't be proffiting off of his brand
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DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Uhhhhh.... they would be leaching off Fender and it's brand reputation...
The only reason you can rip off the body shapes is because Fender was not litigious enough and did not protect their IP.
In the auto industry, they essentially do, short of tacking on the brand name. It's common knowledge that each manufacturer (worldwide) reverse engineers and costs out each other's wares, and what it would take to produce a like-part, and it's then rolled into or cost cut from that marque's offering within segments (which is kind of why the term "segment" was coined in the auto industry, methinks). In the case of this bass, it's mimic a headstock and logo to something they're already 90% of the way producing already...
The long and the short of it is this really sucks but is hardly surprising. Given the notion of something being boutique and desirable/ cachet to any locale where not easily obtained always spurs the fakes.
Hopkins
Commercial User
Right, its totally the same thing
Its not different at all to sell your own brand, than to pass some cheap junk off as another brand that is worth 20 time more than the crap you released in that companies name.
Give me a break man, there is a huge difference.
" Look... me and the McDonald's people got this little misunderstanding. See, they're McDonald's... I'm McDowell's. They got the Golden Arches, mine is the Golden Arcs. They got the Big Mac, I got the Big Mick. We both got two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles and onions, but their buns have sesame seeds. My buns have no seeds."
And some moron goes out and makes a fake McDowell's Big Mick and we are supposed to cry about it.
Hopkins
Commercial User
Thats also a totally different made up situation, and a poor comparison.
Say you bought a Samsung TV, it is labeled as a Samsung, looks like a Samsung, but you aren't an expert on Samsung TVs so you assume its the real deal. Only to get home and that 1080p picture is only 420, and none of the components work, only to find out later after callin Samsung customer support that someone sold you a fake knock off, and he is long gone with your money.
That is a good comparison.
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But, what if the $1000 Samsung TV cost $150? Would you still be quite as startled if it was a knockoff? What if you bought it out of a guy's van? What if it was sold by a Nigerian Price? [dumb, but not an unreasonable comparison, especally the pricing]
There's been fake merchandise as long as there's been authentic merchandise. What can you do?
Well that would be fine. As long as you're willing to buy them in lots of 5 or more.
Having been to China on many occasions in support of business in other industries, I have seen the other side of this discussion. The LED business is different in that it began and matured in 1/10th of the time that the electronic musical instrument industry did, but the pattern or formula is the same...
Here's how the copies and fakes happen...
Westerner looking for manufacturing brings product to China and says "Can you make this?" and more often than not, the amswer is yes. The westerner may be looking to make a legit good of his own, or a copy of something else, or an outright fake, the Chinese don't care - they make what is asked for.
Then, because of the extreme industriousness of the Chinese - they are light years more competitive and capitalist than the US by the way - other companies will see what Mfr A is making and think "I must do this too". If the Chinese are guilty copying anybody, it's usually other Chinese. There is a very "me too" mindset to manufacturing. If the first one has a flaw then the copies will too, for example.
Because manufacturing tools are cheap and plentiful and because they can quickly start a new factory - often with government subsidy or encouragement to create employment and trade - you get whole towns of "me too" factories.
To many, there is little difference in making an electric bass or a Fender counterfeit, it's the same thing - both are copies to their mind. Before the internet, it was much more difficult to find goods to copy and required the introduction by a western foreigner. This activity has been going on for several decades, but the new easy access to both designs and to customers through the internet is making it happen on a far more accelerated timeline than ever.
In any case, I need to make clear that China is capable of making any product in any quality level, including anything that meets or exceeds what we consider high quality... but they will only produce what they are paid for. If buyers go over there negotiating every penny out of the price of a good, they will be getting low cost and low quality goods that fill our western need for cheap, disposable goods.
If you go over there with money and demand for high quality product, you can get that too. It's breathtaking sometimes to go to China and see all the new airports and bridges and subway lines and shopping malls that would put America to shame, and I'm being dead serious. China can make extremely high tech, high quality items - but what they make and sell is exactly what the customer wants.
If there is no customer, there is no factory.
Now, there are many manufacturers who understand things like confidentiality, exclusivity of design, etc... and they work honorably because it's in their interest to do so. The factory making Fenders will not make you a Fender copy, nor will they sell them out the back door at night. Believe me, the knockoff Fenders and Gibsons and now the Nordy are NOT being made at the same factory as the real things, or at the Cort/Samick type factories that make licensed goods. These fakes are made in low tier factories that are not answerable to the known brands and could not lose their meal ticket by double dealing.
These 'wild west' private shops can make a range of goods from absolute crap to absolutely glorious guitars. Again, they make exactly what their customer wants. I have seen them first hand and many times had to shake my head at either the raw junk or the jaw dropping quality.
I'm sitting in an Asian hotel right now, in the 2nd country of this trip, and going to see I think my 8th factory tomorrow after attending a trade show where thousands of factories were showing off their goods. The big brand names were there, their subcontractors were there, and the "me too, wild west factories" were there as well. It's an eye opening thing when the curtain is pulled back and you get to see the inside of a particular trade or industry and realize your previous level of ignorance and naivete as a consumer.
In summary - even though I've probably forgotten many things I intended to include - it's really not reasonable for us to be on a high horse and expect them to stay poor at our expense. Rather than open up all borders to all people in order to create more equality and/or allow more people to live a higher standard of life, the better way is to allow globalization and trade to more slowly create more equilibrium of wealth by willing parties working from both ends towards the middle... but never to actually get there. Inequality is actually necessary, it just shouldn't be extreme.
This sounds terrible to those who dislike the erosion of their manufacturing base, their local jobs, etc... but things settle into a workable state at some point on their own whether it be between town, or states, or countries. Government protectionism or interference should be kept to an absolute minimum and closing borders in todays world would hurt a nation far more than it would help it. They key is to find some workable balance between domestic and offshore manufacturing and service. There will always be a strong market for the domestic good at a higher price and there will be an even larger market - in terms of volume if not in gross dollar value - of lower cost goods that allow all people to access goods to make their lives better.
If you've never bought a $99 cordless drill, $39 bed sheets or $9 baby toy then good for you. You are entitled to your high horse. I prefer not to pretend I'm too good for these things and look at the world in a more nuanced way. I make choices about shopping domestic vs offshore and I understand what those decisions mean, rather than take on some faux nationalistic pride only when it suits me to appear to be doing so. I drive a Ford made 10 miles from where I live, have about a dozen MIJ Fenders and my condo has several items from Ikea mixed in with the artisan type stuff I choose to furnish or decorate with. My building was designed by a Chinese architect who won a global competition.
It's a more complicated world than most people like to think.
/spiel
Here's how the copies and fakes happen...
Westerner looking for manufacturing brings product to China and says "Can you make this?" and more often than not, the amswer is yes. The westerner may be looking to make a legit good of his own, or a copy of something else, or an outright fake, the Chinese don't care - they make what is asked for.
Then, because of the extreme industriousness of the Chinese - they are light years more competitive and capitalist than the US by the way - other companies will see what Mfr A is making and think "I must do this too". If the Chinese are guilty copying anybody, it's usually other Chinese. There is a very "me too" mindset to manufacturing. If the first one has a flaw then the copies will too, for example.
Because manufacturing tools are cheap and plentiful and because they can quickly start a new factory - often with government subsidy or encouragement to create employment and trade - you get whole towns of "me too" factories.
To many, there is little difference in making an electric bass or a Fender counterfeit, it's the same thing - both are copies to their mind. Before the internet, it was much more difficult to find goods to copy and required the introduction by a western foreigner. This activity has been going on for several decades, but the new easy access to both designs and to customers through the internet is making it happen on a far more accelerated timeline than ever.
In any case, I need to make clear that China is capable of making any product in any quality level, including anything that meets or exceeds what we consider high quality... but they will only produce what they are paid for. If buyers go over there negotiating every penny out of the price of a good, they will be getting low cost and low quality goods that fill our western need for cheap, disposable goods.
If you go over there with money and demand for high quality product, you can get that too. It's breathtaking sometimes to go to China and see all the new airports and bridges and subway lines and shopping malls that would put America to shame, and I'm being dead serious. China can make extremely high tech, high quality items - but what they make and sell is exactly what the customer wants.
If there is no customer, there is no factory.
Now, there are many manufacturers who understand things like confidentiality, exclusivity of design, etc... and they work honorably because it's in their interest to do so. The factory making Fenders will not make you a Fender copy, nor will they sell them out the back door at night. Believe me, the knockoff Fenders and Gibsons and now the Nordy are NOT being made at the same factory as the real things, or at the Cort/Samick type factories that make licensed goods. These fakes are made in low tier factories that are not answerable to the known brands and could not lose their meal ticket by double dealing.
These 'wild west' private shops can make a range of goods from absolute crap to absolutely glorious guitars. Again, they make exactly what their customer wants. I have seen them first hand and many times had to shake my head at either the raw junk or the jaw dropping quality.
I'm sitting in an Asian hotel right now, in the 2nd country of this trip, and going to see I think my 8th factory tomorrow after attending a trade show where thousands of factories were showing off their goods. The big brand names were there, their subcontractors were there, and the "me too, wild west factories" were there as well. It's an eye opening thing when the curtain is pulled back and you get to see the inside of a particular trade or industry and realize your previous level of ignorance and naivete as a consumer.
In summary - even though I've probably forgotten many things I intended to include - it's really not reasonable for us to be on a high horse and expect them to stay poor at our expense. Rather than open up all borders to all people in order to create more equality and/or allow more people to live a higher standard of life, the better way is to allow globalization and trade to more slowly create more equilibrium of wealth by willing parties working from both ends towards the middle... but never to actually get there. Inequality is actually necessary, it just shouldn't be extreme.
This sounds terrible to those who dislike the erosion of their manufacturing base, their local jobs, etc... but things settle into a workable state at some point on their own whether it be between town, or states, or countries. Government protectionism or interference should be kept to an absolute minimum and closing borders in todays world would hurt a nation far more than it would help it. They key is to find some workable balance between domestic and offshore manufacturing and service. There will always be a strong market for the domestic good at a higher price and there will be an even larger market - in terms of volume if not in gross dollar value - of lower cost goods that allow all people to access goods to make their lives better.
If you've never bought a $99 cordless drill, $39 bed sheets or $9 baby toy then good for you. You are entitled to your high horse. I prefer not to pretend I'm too good for these things and look at the world in a more nuanced way. I make choices about shopping domestic vs offshore and I understand what those decisions mean, rather than take on some faux nationalistic pride only when it suits me to appear to be doing so. I drive a Ford made 10 miles from where I live, have about a dozen MIJ Fenders and my condo has several items from Ikea mixed in with the artisan type stuff I choose to furnish or decorate with. My building was designed by a Chinese architect who won a global competition.
It's a more complicated world than most people like to think.
/spiel
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What if the Samsung add said
The items are MADE IN CHINA. They are not the original ones that some of you guys are seeking for, but they are with good quality and WELL worth the money you pay. In the rare instance of a defective item, please be sure to contact us first and let’s figure out a good way to solve it.
The items are MADE IN CHINA. They are not the original ones that some of you guys are seeking for, but they are with good quality and WELL worth the money you pay. In the rare instance of a defective item, please be sure to contact us first and let’s figure out a good way to solve it.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Right, its totally the same thing
Its not different at all to sell your own brand, than to pass some cheap junk off as another brand that is worth 20 time more than the crap you released in that companies name.
Give me a break man, there is a huge difference.
I am not saying the Chinese counterfeit isn't horribly wrong but to say there are not any similarities between what everybody else did to Fender is a little ridiculous. There is a reason people started making their own P and J basses, they were instantly recognizable. If Fender had been more litigious back in the day we would be having this exact same conversation about the Nordy (or almost any builder for that matter.)
Hopkins
Commercial User
That isn't the point, the point is, that knockoff will always have the potential of being sold as the real thing, at a price close to the real thing. It doesn't matter if the first seller was honest about what it is.
You can choose not to support the companies that sell counterfeit goods.
Hopkins
Commercial User
It would still be a counterfeit item of lower quality and value than that of a real one, and it would still have the potential of being passed off as real by a scam artist.
Hopkins
Commercial User
There are similarities between shoplifting a candy bar and an armed bank robbery. It hardly makes them even close to the same thing.
Gibson's been doing it for years. Making instruments that look exactly like Kramers, putting Kramer on the headstock and trying to pass them off as quality, OEM Kramers.
Hopkins what I'm saying is on par with Diablo. It's been a long time people have copied Fender.
I disagree with this counterfeit junk but I don't find it particularly offensive that someone copied a copy.
I don't care if fenders trademark only extends to the head stock as far courts are concerned. All these companies make the body look like a fender because it sells more basses. That is riding coat tails. I don't much care if it's legal or not.
Now Ali express lists plenty of non fender clones and I sing a different tune on those. But that's not what we are discussing here.
I disagree with this counterfeit junk but I don't find it particularly offensive that someone copied a copy.
I don't care if fenders trademark only extends to the head stock as far courts are concerned. All these companies make the body look like a fender because it sells more basses. That is riding coat tails. I don't much care if it's legal or not.
Now Ali express lists plenty of non fender clones and I sing a different tune on those. But that's not what we are discussing here.
No one has a perfect moral compass, not even those who preach about it from a bully pulpit.
Counterfeiting is not an equal partnership in bad behavior. The builders and purveyors of fake items initiate the crime by creating the supply, without which, the end consumer would not be able to participate. Ergo, the suppliers carry the burden of guilt.
