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Fake Nordstrand bass

Having been to China on many occasions in support of business in other industries, I have seen the other side of this discussion. The LED business is different in that it began and matured in 1/10th of the time that the electronic musical instrument industry did, but the pattern or formula is the same...

Here's how the copies and fakes happen...

Westerner looking for manufacturing brings product to China and says "Can you make this?" and more often than not, the amswer is yes. The westerner may be looking to make a legit good of his own, or a copy of something else, or an outright fake, the Chinese don't care - they make what is asked for.

Then, because of the extreme industriousness of the Chinese - they are light years more competitive and capitalist than the US by the way - other companies will see what Mfr A is making and think "I must do this too". If the Chinese are guilty copying anybody, it's usually other Chinese. There is a very "me too" mindset to manufacturing. If the first one has a flaw then the copies will too, for example.

Because manufacturing tools are cheap and plentiful and because they can quickly start a new factory - often with government subsidy or encouragement to create employment and trade - you get whole towns of "me too" factories.

To many, there is little difference in making an electric bass or a Fender counterfeit, it's the same thing - both are copies to their mind. Before the internet, it was much more difficult to find goods to copy and required the introduction by a western foreigner. This activity has been going on for several decades, but the new easy access to both designs and to customers through the internet is making it happen on a far more accelerated timeline than ever.

In any case, I need to make clear that China is capable of making any product in any quality level, including anything that meets or exceeds what we consider high quality... but they will only produce what they are paid for. If buyers go over there negotiating every penny out of the price of a good, they will be getting low cost and low quality goods that fill our western need for cheap, disposable goods.

If you go over there with money and demand for high quality product, you can get that too. It's breathtaking sometimes to go to China and see all the new airports and bridges and subway lines and shopping malls that would put America to shame, and I'm being dead serious. China can make extremely high tech, high quality items - but what they make and sell is exactly what the customer wants.

If there is no customer, there is no factory.

Now, there are many manufacturers who understand things like confidentiality, exclusivity of design, etc... and they work honorably because it's in their interest to do so. The factory making Fenders will not make you a Fender copy, nor will they sell them out the back door at night. Believe me, the knockoff Fenders and Gibsons and now the Nordy are NOT being made at the same factory as the real things, or at the Cort/Samick type factories that make licensed goods. These fakes are made in low tier factories that are not answerable to the known brands and could not lose their meal ticket by double dealing.

These 'wild west' private shops can make a range of goods from absolute crap to absolutely glorious guitars. Again, they make exactly what their customer wants. I have seen them first hand and many times had to shake my head at either the raw junk or the jaw dropping quality.

I'm sitting in an Asian hotel right now, in the 2nd country of this trip, and going to see I think my 8th factory tomorrow after attending a trade show where thousands of factories were showing off their goods. The big brand names were there, their subcontractors were there, and the "me too, wild west factories" were there as well. It's an eye opening thing when the curtain is pulled back and you get to see the inside of a particular trade or industry and realize your previous level of ignorance and naivete as a consumer.

In summary - even though I've probably forgotten many things I intended to include - it's really not reasonable for us to be on a high horse and expect them to stay poor at our expense. Rather than open up all borders to all people in order to create more equality and/or allow more people to live a higher standard of life, the better way is to allow globalization and trade to more slowly create more equilibrium of wealth by willing parties working from both ends towards the middle... but never to actually get there. Inequality is actually necessary, it just shouldn't be extreme.

This sounds terrible to those who dislike the erosion of their manufacturing base, their local jobs, etc... but things settle into a workable state at some point on their own whether it be between town, or states, or countries. Government protectionism or interference should be kept to an absolute minimum and closing borders in todays world would hurt a nation far more than it would help it. They key is to find some workable balance between domestic and offshore manufacturing and service. There will always be a strong market for the domestic good at a higher price and there will be an even larger market - in terms of volume if not in gross dollar value - of lower cost goods that allow all people to access goods to make their lives better.

If you've never bought a $99 cordless drill, $39 bed sheets or $9 baby toy then good for you. You are entitled to your high horse. I prefer not to pretend I'm too good for these things and look at the world in a more nuanced way. I make choices about shopping domestic vs offshore and I understand what those decisions mean, rather than take on some faux nationalistic pride only when it suits me to appear to be doing so. I drive a Ford made 10 miles from where I live, have about a dozen MIJ Fenders and my condo has several items from Ikea mixed in with the artisan type stuff I choose to furnish or decorate with. My building was designed by a Chinese architect who won a global competition.

It's a more complicated world than most people like to think.

/spiel


VERY well written and said. Thanks for your deep and intelligent perspective.

I have to laugh a little at these fake basses. And no, it really doesn't bother me and there's really nothing I can do about it. I'd rather they were not out there, but they are. Ok. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it and I don't think it hurts us financially at all.

Look, I can count on one hand the number of basses we made in the last 4 months. My customer base is VERY small and everyone knows everyone. And I like it that way. If I was more the size of Lakland or Sadowsky I might be a little more concerned about this situation. But there's only one place to buy a real Nordstrand bass, and it's from us. There are no dealers. Part of buying one of our basses is the process of placing the order and having it built. With progress pics. It's an experience culminating in a great bass that hopefully hits the bullseye for the player.

You're not going to get that from China. Not with my name on it.

And the world keeps moving.
 
No one has a perfect moral compass, not even those who preach about it from a bully pulpit.

Counterfeiting is not an equal partnership in bad behavior. The builders and purveyors of fake items initiate the crime by creating the supply, without which, the end consumer would not be able to participate. Ergo, the suppliers carry the burden of guilt.

Progress, not perfection. Denying culpability doesn't help. Personal responsibility is a great thing. More people should try it...

MarkoYYZ's post is spot on. The Chinese culture, especially around business, is fundamentally different. They do not respect IP - and that's ok. But a US or EU buyer should have some respect for IP, and themselves.
 
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Hopkins what I'm saying is on par with Diablo. It's been a long time people have copied Fender.

I disagree with this counterfeit junk but I don't find it particularly offensive that someone copied a copy.

I don't care if fenders trademark only extends to the head stock as far courts are concerned. All these companies make the body look like a fender because it sells more basses. That is riding coat tails. I don't much care if it's legal or not.

Now Ali express lists plenty of non fender clones and I sing a different tune on those. But that's not what we are discussing here.

I get it, you don't like Jazz or P basses that aren't Fenders, that doesn't change the fact that they are made my legit companies, not counterfeiters like that website is selling.
 
Progress, not perfection. Denying culpability doesn't help. Personal responsibility is a great thing. More people should try it...

MarkoYYZ's post is spot on. The Chinese culture, especially around business, is fundamentally different. They do not respect IP - and that's ok. But a US or EU buyer should have some respect for IP, and themselves.

Not denying culpability. But rather, quantifying it. It is futile and self-destructive to place equal blame on the end consumer for crimes initiated by law breaking manufacturers.

Is it a "crime" for a consumer to purchase a fake item? Or, is it a crime for a manufacturer to violate international laws and trade agreements? I think the latter.

There is absolutely no 'progress' in wringing one's hands and proclaiming that the problem is "too complex" to assign guilt. Fuzzy thinking IMO.
 
We agree to disagree. Not fuzzy thinking at all - I just place a higher bias towards personal responsibility. I find it neither futile nor self-destructive to try and get people to think before they act. People know that buying fakes is somehow wrong. That is why you see so much rationalization and moral equivalence going on. But if you want to hold the manufacturer as the primary bad actor, I understand your viewpoint. I just don't agree.
 
Really? Am I the one being Naive?

Counterfeit would imply that they were trying to sell these as authentic when the ad says "The items are MADE IN CHINA. They are not the original ones that some of you guys are seeking for, but they are with good quality and WELL worth the money you pay. In the rare instance of a defective item, please be sure to contact us first and let’s figure out a good way to solve it."

I've owned a good number of Fender clones and have no issues with these companies. That being said in many cases every feature of them is identical (in looks) to a Fender except the logo and shape of the bottom of the head stock. These companies are using the looks and design (Fenders reputation) to the fullest extent allowed by law. If the law allowed it they'd use the Fender headstock shape and Logo; call it a Fender Jazz bass and in small letters it would say (made by XYZ).

So tell me which "P & J" bass clones haven't in some way cashed in on Fender's reputation?

So yes these basses on Ali Express may not comply with our laws but I just don't see it as a horrific crime.

This of course being limited to a knock off of a Nordy Fender clone.

I've had the same argument on TB about it's ok to rip off Fender shapes and names (p or J) but not ok for others. I had a Stambaugh that was fashioned in the vain of a Fodera and called it an AJ6...boy did I hear about it. Look it up, it's funny. You won't win that argument, but I agree with you.

Regardless, this is plain thievery. This is not built in the vain of. I can't believe we can't petition ISP's to stop providing access to this crap. YouTube blocks copyright infringing videos...
 
We agree to disagree. Not fuzzy thinking at all - I just place a higher bias towards personal responsibility. I find it neither futile nor self-destructive to try and get people to think before they act. People know that buying fakes is somehow wrong. That is why you see so much rationalization and moral equivalence going on. But if you want to hold the manufacturer as the primary bad actor, I understand your viewpoint. I just don't agree.

I think the only thing we disagree on is whether personal responsibility can even matter anymore. It requires "virtue", which is in such short supply nowadays, that it is virtually non-existent in our society.
 
When I first saw this stuff it made me pretty sick. After I took some time to think about it and looking at all the companies that make a "Fender" but alter the bottom of the headstock to comply with US laws I don't feel all that bad about it. It's actually taken me a long time to come around to thinking like this, my reaction was similar to most on here as someone that has American Made loyalty and an appreciation for luthiers of the instrument we love.

I respect and appreciate what Carey and other builders do and I think when you have one of these in your hand you'll know it's not the real thing.

That being said this kinda sorta looks like a Fender knock off too..

burst4web.jpg

One big difference. Carey doesn't put a Fender logo on his basses. Their little disclaimer about the bass not being a real Nordy is total BS, as they have clearly copied the headstock logo. Guaranteed someone buys this down the road at some point thinking they are getting the real thing and pays way too much for it. There is no way around the fact that this sort of business is wrong and that our Govt. is spineless when it comes to making China respect the patent and copyright laws of US companies.
 
I think the only thing we disagree on is whether personal responsibility can even matter anymore. It requires "virtue", which is in such short supply nowadays, that it is virtually non-existent in our society.

Well, if you don't expect personal responsibility from people or call them on it when they fail to live up to a certain standard, then it certainly will disappear.
 
5000 year old China shrugs at 300 year old America telling it what to do.

America can get China to conform its will in 2 ways...

1) Force. We (the west) go to Afghanistan to stop the Taliban from killing little girls who want to go to school, but with all the other global issues of significantly higher importance, it's not going to happen.

2) Economic might. Despite the Cold War being about weapons, it was ultimately the US bringing the USSR to its knees financially. With the co-dependence between the US and China what it is, any financial damage inflicted to China is financial damage inflicted back on itself. Not going to happen.

I can't believe we can't petition ISP's to stop providing access to this crap. YouTube blocks copyright infringing videos...
Are you suggesting that the US should selectively censor foreign websites? Like China is universally reviled for doing?

Is it a "crime" for a consumer to purchase a fake item? Or, is it a crime for a manufacturer to violate international laws and trade agreements? I think the latter.
These companies are no mor violating the law than an Englishman is by driving on the other side of the road. You may not be aware, but China is not a signatory to any international IP trade laws. With the state of the USPTO going batpoopie crazy, I can't say I blame them.


I do NOT support what is going on, just trying to clarify that some of the arguments being made here are little more than pissing in the wind.
 
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Having been to China on many occasions in support of business in other industries, I have seen the other side of this discussion. The LED business is different in that it began and matured in 1/10th of the time that the electronic musical instrument industry did, but the pattern or formula is the same...

Here's how the copies and fakes happen...

Westerner looking for manufacturing brings product to China and says "Can you make this?" and more often than not, the amswer is yes. The westerner may be looking to make a legit good of his own, or a copy of something else, or an outright fake, the Chinese don't care - they make what is asked for.

Then, because of the extreme industriousness of the Chinese - they are light years more competitive and capitalist than the US by the way - other companies will see what Mfr A is making and think "I must do this too". If the Chinese are guilty copying anybody, it's usually other Chinese. There is a very "me too" mindset to manufacturing. If the first one has a flaw then the copies will too, for example.

Because manufacturing tools are cheap and plentiful and because they can quickly start a new factory - often with government subsidy or encouragement to create employment and trade - you get whole towns of "me too" factories.

To many, there is little difference in making an electric bass or a Fender counterfeit, it's the same thing - both are copies to their mind. Before the internet, it was much more difficult to find goods to copy and required the introduction by a western foreigner. This activity has been going on for several decades, but the new easy access to both designs and to customers through the internet is making it happen on a far more accelerated timeline than ever.

In any case, I need to make clear that China is capable of making any product in any quality level, including anything that meets or exceeds what we consider high quality... but they will only produce what they are paid for. If buyers go over there negotiating every penny out of the price of a good, they will be getting low cost and low quality goods that fill our western need for cheap, disposable goods.

If you go over there with money and demand for high quality product, you can get that too. It's breathtaking sometimes to go to China and see all the new airports and bridges and subway lines and shopping malls that would put America to shame, and I'm being dead serious. China can make extremely high tech, high quality items - but what they make and sell is exactly what the customer wants.

If there is no customer, there is no factory.

Now, there are many manufacturers who understand things like confidentiality, exclusivity of design, etc... and they work honorably because it's in their interest to do so. The factory making Fenders will not make you a Fender copy, nor will they sell them out the back door at night. Believe me, the knockoff Fenders and Gibsons and now the Nordy are NOT being made at the same factory as the real things, or at the Cort/Samick type factories that make licensed goods. These fakes are made in low tier factories that are not answerable to the known brands and could not lose their meal ticket by double dealing.

These 'wild west' private shops can make a range of goods from absolute crap to absolutely glorious guitars. Again, they make exactly what their customer wants. I have seen them first hand and many times had to shake my head at either the raw junk or the jaw dropping quality.

I'm sitting in an Asian hotel right now, in the 2nd country of this trip, and going to see I think my 8th factory tomorrow after attending a trade show where thousands of factories were showing off their goods. The big brand names were there, their subcontractors were there, and the "me too, wild west factories" were there as well. It's an eye opening thing when the curtain is pulled back and you get to see the inside of a particular trade or industry and realize your previous level of ignorance and naivete as a consumer.

In summary - even though I've probably forgotten many things I intended to include - it's really not reasonable for us to be on a high horse and expect them to stay poor at our expense. Rather than open up all borders to all people in order to create more equality and/or allow more people to live a higher standard of life, the better way is to allow globalization and trade to more slowly create more equilibrium of wealth by willing parties working from both ends towards the middle... but never to actually get there. Inequality is actually necessary, it just shouldn't be extreme.

This sounds terrible to those who dislike the erosion of their manufacturing base, their local jobs, etc... but things settle into a workable state at some point on their own whether it be between town, or states, or countries. Government protectionism or interference should be kept to an absolute minimum and closing borders in todays world would hurt a nation far more than it would help it. They key is to find some workable balance between domestic and offshore manufacturing and service. There will always be a strong market for the domestic good at a higher price and there will be an even larger market - in terms of volume if not in gross dollar value - of lower cost goods that allow all people to access goods to make their lives better.

If you've never bought a $99 cordless drill, $39 bed sheets or $9 baby toy then good for you. You are entitled to your high horse. I prefer not to pretend I'm too good for these things and look at the world in a more nuanced way. I make choices about shopping domestic vs offshore and I understand what those decisions mean, rather than take on some faux nationalistic pride only when it suits me to appear to be doing so. I drive a Ford made 10 miles from where I live, have about a dozen MIJ Fenders and my condo has several items from Ikea mixed in with the artisan type stuff I choose to furnish or decorate with. My building was designed by a Chinese architect who won a global competition.

It's a more complicated world than most people like to think.

/spiel
very interesting post. I did a post-grad masters in design, I specialised in Graphic design but ended up working in the corner of a room where they had various product and furniture designers. It was interesting that at least 3 guest lecturers pointed out that 5 years ago if you wanted anything made you went to china - but now for smaller runs, it was actually quicker and more cost effective to get things made locally, partly because of speed, lower volumes and being able to work closely with the manufacturers to iron out any problems but also as you would know your IP would be protected if your design went to a manufacturer in Dublin, Dresden or Dundee.
 
I get it, you don't like Jazz or P basses that aren't Fenders, that doesn't change the fact that they are made my legit companies, not counterfeiters like that website is selling.

I never said I don't like them in fact I've owned a number of laklands, Alleva Coppolo, Sadowsky, Valenti and can appreciate the great work Carey does even if I had not played or owned his basses.

But we generally dance around legal issues call them J basses, vintage basses. We are offended when there is trademark infringement on a head stock but accept the fact that everyone copies a jazz or precision body.

I believe companies like Sadowsky make a great 5 string, active jazz bass. They were happy to make them in a solid color or fancy top with the electronics rear routed with no control plate. As consumers we've demanded all these companies make them look like a fender. Add the control plate and pickguard. Among the clone companies I mention the J and P basses are among the best selling even though most of these guys have an original design too.

Again I don't agree with the counterfeits or breaking laws. But when people talk about profiting from a reputation in a legal way everyone seems to be ok with it.

We also have a different standard if copying to make them better we call it boutique. But copying to make it cheaper is frowned upon.
 
I never said I don't like them in fact I've owned a number of laklands, Alleva Coppolo, Sadowsky, Valenti and can appreciate the great work Carey does even if I had not played or owned his basses.

But we generally dance around legal issues call them J basses, vintage basses. We are offended when there is trademark infringement on a head stock but accept the fact that everyone copies a jazz or precision body.

I believe companies like Sadowsky make a great 5 string, active jazz bass. They were happy to make them in a solid color or fancy top with the electronics rear routed with no control plate. As consumers we've demanded all these companies make them look like a fender. Add the control plate and pickguard. Among the clone companies I mention the J and P basses are among the best selling even though most of these guys have an original design too.

Again I don't agree with the counterfeits or breaking laws. But when people talk about profiting from a reputation in a legal way everyone seems to be ok with it.

We also have a different standard if copying to make them better we call it boutique. But copying to make it cheaper is frowned upon.

They all wooden with vibrating wires picked up by magnetic pickups at the end of the day....

I don't really get if you're being serious here or facetious or what - you're confusing two things- Leo Fender designed the precision and the jazz, tele and start rickenbacker designed the 4001, Gibson the les paul... now some of those designs were borrowed from elsewhere, others were original others were new ways of using old things. and some of that was patentable, and some of that was trademarkable. If it was patentable it was patented - if it wasn't patented .... well then like leo did, later builders can use the unpatented technology and ideas.
Sadowsky, Valenti, Lakland and the like, and even our Chinese friends I would think, don't break any patents belonging to FMIC. Everything they do is generic to an electric bass...
There are bits of a bass that are trademarkable - for Rickenbacker that's most the bass, for Fender/FMIC it's pretty much just the headstock and the name - in the same way Nordstand own the name and the mark - the bass in the OP hasn't broken any patent law that we know of - just ripped off a trademark.

So yes your Sadowsky takes a now generic design from Leo, and refines it to your modern active 5 string... but they don't stick "Fender" on the headstock. These chinese may make a amazing modern active 5 string jazz... nothing wrong with that at all, could be the best bass in the world, it owes a debt to leo fender but..... what they can't or shouldn't do is stick a badge on it identifying it as a Nordstand.
 
They all wooden with vibrating wires picked up by magnetic pickups at the end of the day....

I don't really get if you're being serious here or facetious or what - you're confusing two things- Leo Fender designed the precision and the jazz, tele and start rickenbacker designed the 4001, Gibson the les paul... now some of those designs were borrowed from elsewhere, others were original others were new ways of using old things. and some of that was patentable, and some of that was trademarkable. If it was patentable it was patented - if it wasn't patented .... well then like leo did, later builders can use the unpatented technology and ideas.
Sadowsky, Valenti, Lakland and the like, and even our Chinese friends I would think, don't break any patents belonging to FMIC. Everything they do is generic to an electric bass...
There are bits of a bass that are trademarkable - for Rickenbacker that's most the bass, for Fender/FMIC it's pretty much just the headstock and the name - in the same way Nordstand own the name and the mark - the bass in the OP hasn't broken any patent law that we know of - just ripped off a trademark.

So yes your Sadowsky takes a now generic design from Leo, and refines it to your modern active 5 string... but they don't stick "Fender" on the headstock. These chinese may make a amazing modern active 5 string jazz... nothing wrong with that at all, could be the best bass in the world, it owes a debt to leo fender but..... what they can't or shouldn't do is stick a badge on it identifying it as a Nordstand.

What I think is that it's not a generic design from Leo but an instantly recognizable Fender Jazz (or precision) bass. I recognize that the Nordy VJ I posted is very different in playability and components but when you look at it it's a jazz bass with a funny looking head stock. Actually the fake Nordy has a Celinder style knob layout and to my eye the real Nordy looks more like a Fender than the fake Nordy looks like a real Nordy. I think the clones can stand on their own but when you drop in the pickguard and control plate it's a jazz bass. Everyone recognizes it as that and nobody says look at that nice generic bass they say look at Nordy's take on a jazz bass.

They borrow what is legal to borrow which is 95% of the visual look of the bass. I really don't have a problem with all of this honestly but when the only thing unique visually is that last 5% (the head stock) and someone steals that 5% I just don't think it's worth getting upset about. On my end, if the builder wants to be concerned sure I understand.

I only initially posted my comments when people seemed outraged by the theft of IP, and stealing a reputation. We all know that "jazz style basses" sell and Fenders inability to financial defend their IP many years ago is the only reason we are having this discussion.
 
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That's what I'm saying. These Chinese factories can't capitalize on the Nordstrand name because I just don't see that many players buying a $300 fake Nordy. You're not going to get the sound/pickups that its famous for, so what is the point? It might be lacking in business integrity, but that's life.
 
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These companies are no mor violating the law than an Englishman is by driving on the other side of the road. You may not be aware, but China is not a signatory to any international IP trade laws. With the state of the USPTO going batpoopie crazy, I can't say I blame them.

When an Englishman drives on the other side of the road HERE it is definitely against the law. In some parts of the world it is perfectly "legal" to decapitate people. If they do that HERE, it is a crime because it violates OUR laws. When ripoff counterfeit goods hit our shores laws are being broken. It doesn't matter if Red China hasn't signed on to any internat'l IP trade laws, why would they? They're busy waging economic warfare against the West. Not to mention Chinese industrial espionage that's been happening for the last 30 years. The only question is....why is it allowed to continue?
 
That's what I'm saying. These Chinese factories can't capitalize on the Nordstrand name because I just don't see that many players buying a $300 fake Nordy. You're not going to get the sound/pickups that its famous for, so what is the point? It might be lacking in business integrity, but that's life.
The point is that Internet scammers are going to sell these as real. Did you miss the part about how they're sold in lots of five or more?
 
I'm gathering that this is not illegal in China and if they sell them to other countries that don't comply with international trade laws it's not illegal at all. If you chose to import it into the US you are then breaking the law. Does that sound correct?
 
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