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Fakes?
- Thread starter KSB - Ken Smith
- Start date
- Status
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
Toasted said:
I do see however how alot of bottles can make the words seem longer and more complicated...
slugworth said:
In my opinion, Leo Fender instruments were copied long before he died. He seemed to be ok with that as I haven't heard of lawsuits being filed against those copiers. As long as the owner of the design is OK with people copying his instruments, I dont see why there should be a problem with it, and I dont see even more why you have a say in it as well. What, do you own Fender stocks or something?
What I have a problem with is people making cheap ass exact copies of instruments without the approval of the designer and selling them at a price which turns the original designer's clients to buying those cheap copies, resulting in businesses either running out of business, or taking a big hit saleswise (which was proven in this thread seeing how a user here bought one of these basses).
Leo Fender made "universal" designs which are thought to be the best and thus copied by many incredible luthiers which, IMHO, pay a tribute to the man by using his design for their basses. I dont think Mr. Fender had, or would have a problem with people copying his design - on the contrary I'm sure he felt extremely happy and fulfilled that so many big names in the instrument making industry thought so highly of his designs to use them in the making of their own instruments. If he did not, there would be patents on every design and lawsuits filled right and left against every luthier copying them. Fact is, the Jazz and Precision designs are widely used across the globe, and I'm pretty sure Leo Fender felt pretty damn happy about it.
The man made alot of money, ALOT of money building and designing instruments. To the point where there were many factories built to mass produce those instruments, thus making the market for guitars/basses filled with fenders to the point where both in guitars and basses fender instruments became number 1 salewise, beating any concurrence by far.
Here we're arguing about handmade basses by small luthier shops, with a name, while well known, not surrounded by the craze there is around fender instruments. The point is, copying a Fender will not have Leo Fender's family run out of money and lose enough business to have to close factories or fire employees. Buying a Ken Smith copy may have such repercussions in the long run.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
i find the whole dichotomy between fender knock-offs and non-fender knock-offs interesting. i assume it's the price fender has to pay for being the "standard" instrument design.
i am curious why the body style and shape was not patented for fender basses and guitars. anyone have any idea?
i am curious why the body style and shape was not patented for fender basses and guitars. anyone have any idea?
john turner said:
The same reason Fenders are still the best selling basses and guitars in the world
dispite people knocking off the shape of fenders they do not rip off the quality or the name
generally knock offs are not as high of quality
the differance here is they are not saying they are a knock off they are claiming to be the real deal
john turner said:
I had read that the bodies were considered fairly generic by Fender because they followed the generally accepted design ideas already in place for most guitars. The headstock OTOH was more readily identifiable and when first introduced by Fender rather unique and more defendable.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
69nites said:
are they? i had read in an industry periodical that the biggest selling instruments come from the main samick plant in korea.
well, that's fairly subjective right there. i've played a bunch of fenders in my life, including the best they have to offer at over a dozen namm shows, and while they were mostly fine, i don't see anything particularly extraordinary about them. a few even sucked, frankly, in terms of worksmanship quality and playability, but that's going to be the case with any mass produced instrument - a certain percentage are going to be unredeemable dogs.
i dont know about that. i would put an SX jazz or pbass next to an equally priced fender in a second - you're talking comparing to a squire there, which is a dicey proposition at best.
the higher-dollar "boutique" fender style instruments really stack up well against the best fender has to offer too, in my experience.
ah, well, yeah, that's pretty bad
Beside the shoddy quality and materials, soiling the reputation of the real manufacturers, and being completely unethical and unapologetic about it. Plus the potential for frauds. Fake business is not to be encouraged.
Why does he bother anyway... If he is any good as a luthier, he should come up with his own design, even if they are knock offs of famous designs, and stop pretending. He could make a reputation for himself, instead of selling his image a rubbish copycat. I guess he just doesn't care about the products and just wants your $$$.
Actually, yes I did. I actually wrote a long paper about this once. It was the first commercially successful electric bass, not the first bass period.SMASH said:
I'm not sure if you meant to write "tplyons" rather than "Typlyons"
Looks like kingluthier is no longer a registered user.
But mastersbasses Is...
note the disclaimer:
"For reasons of copyright we cant put registered trademarks on listings titles example: Ken Smith, Fodera, Warwick, Alembic, Warrior, etc... We have very serious problems with these builders in the past and now all our basses will be listed as CUSTOM ok. Thanks."
Link Removed
But mastersbasses Is...
note the disclaimer:
"For reasons of copyright we cant put registered trademarks on listings titles example: Ken Smith, Fodera, Warwick, Alembic, Warrior, etc... We have very serious problems with these builders in the past and now all our basses will be listed as CUSTOM ok. Thanks."
Link Removed
war_n_peace said:
...which means that their auctions will still show up if you click the "Search title and description" checkbox when doing a search on "ken smith bass."
That "disclaimer" is still keyword spamming. From eBay:
"Keyword spamming occurs when members place brand names or other inappropriate keywords in a title or description for the purpose of gaining attention or diverting members to a listing."
(emphasis mine)
lonotes
A place for everything, & everything out of place
tplyons said:
I could be mistaken, but it's always been my understanding that Leo Fender was kind of like Henry Ford in that his contribution was in creating the manufacturing process that allowed a quality product to be had by an average income working person. Be it cars or guitars and basses. Of course, he had to design the product in a fashion to allow mass production and interchangeability of parts as well as the tools and methods for production. In other words, to look at only the instruments, is to only look at half of his genius.
Ian Perge said:
I'll just add that like it or not, there is some relativism at play here as well. In some other cultures the originator of an idea is not afforded the same claim to that idea and derivatives thereof as he is here in a primarily capitalist economy.
Apparently, the Chinese think nothing of reverse engineering a design and selling the knockoffs, and those who do that over there are beyond the reach of the enforcement of US patent and copyright law. Are they wrong for doing it? It depends on whose standard of wrongness you apply.
But in the interest of fairness to any would-be counterfeiters in this country (if for no other reason), I believe that it should be illegal to sell such products here in the US. With the advent of internet sales, however, I don't know how it can be stopped.
Interesting points here.
All ken smith basses are made in the USA, so an unfinished product made in Brazil would tip off anyone that has heard of the basses as to its authenticity, most people aren't that stupid.
The Fender argument is nothing but a double-standard. Somehow people feel the volume of sales has something to do with it, ethically it's the same. This is the reason I'd never own a sadowsky or anything similar, I don't even have the slightest interest in one. Cut an inch of wood off the headstock and you're safe
This is not to say that these higher end copied shape basses don't play/sound better than the originals, I bet that they do. This still wouldn't justify it to me...
That to me, that's an absurd statement, sound like you're a bit mellowed out. What do you mean that he made "universal" designs? He made his own design; the Fender instruments. Someone making a lot of money by cheaply copying your design is not flattery. A fake rolex isn't making the rolex company damn happy whether it says Rolex or Foolex on the dial.
All ken smith basses are made in the USA, so an unfinished product made in Brazil would tip off anyone that has heard of the basses as to its authenticity, most people aren't that stupid.
The Fender argument is nothing but a double-standard. Somehow people feel the volume of sales has something to do with it, ethically it's the same. This is the reason I'd never own a sadowsky or anything similar, I don't even have the slightest interest in one. Cut an inch of wood off the headstock and you're safe
This is not to say that these higher end copied shape basses don't play/sound better than the originals, I bet that they do. This still wouldn't justify it to me...
morf said:
That to me, that's an absurd statement, sound like you're a bit mellowed out. What do you mean that he made "universal" designs? He made his own design; the Fender instruments. Someone making a lot of money by cheaply copying your design is not flattery. A fake rolex isn't making the rolex company damn happy whether it says Rolex or Foolex on the dial.
I reported him to eBay. He's been changing his username time and time again for more times than I can remember. I hope he just keeps getting his account closed and losing his listing fees so this becomes a losing battle.moro said:...which means that their auctions will still show up if you click the "Search title and description" checkbox when doing a search on "ken smith bass."
That "disclaimer" is still keyword spamming. From eBay:
"Keyword spamming occurs when members place brand names or other inappropriate keywords in a title or description for the purpose of gaining attention or diverting members to a listing."
(emphasis mine)
I'm all for free trade, but not on someone's name. Go ahead and make it, but don't put Smith or Warrior or any other brand name anywhere near it.
You don't patent aesthetic shapes, you can trademark them though. A patent could be had on a shape if the shape performs a specific function, like a door stop or something. I'd have to double check but I believe the Fender headstock protection is under trade mark and trade dress protection and not patent.john turner said:
Patents are still awarded incorrectly but they can be challenged and overturned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patentability for anyone interested.
There have been many lawsuits, one company (Tokai) even settled one of their lawsuits by making real Fenders instead of knock offs. At first they just made a tiny change to the headstock but then they became Fender Japan.morf said:
Also Mr. Fender sold his rights by 1965, he could no longer easily sue after that.
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