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this thread brought back a memory for me. years ago, in the mid-'90s, i was buying my first bass combo. it was the first time i went into carvin (guess sending me years of catalogs paid off), and i went in, picked up a 100 watt combo, decided it was a decent weight. i didn't even try it. a sales guy came over (i still remember his name was mike). he said it was cool that i was there, and where was the guy i was buying the combo for. he really really asked me that! i guess he hadn't heard of carol kaye.
the next day, i came back with cash and told the manager (who became a friend) about that, telling him i wouldn't buy the combo from mike and didn't want him to get the commission. the manager was very nice about it, and he also told me the guy had been fired the day before, right after i had come in. apparently he had some other personality features that had offended other customers, as well.
ageism is a big deal for me, these days. when my elderly mother was in her last days, people would talk to her like she was a cute child instead of an experienced adult. i find that is often pointed at me IF i haven't dyed my hair recently or am wearing it off my face, as i look older that way. and how invisible i've become as a person unless my clothes seem too young to someone, and then they seem sort of offended.
have we made progress? well, sort of, soft of not. when i was a kid, unless you were poor it was very rare that wives worked at all - a working wife was a sign that the husband couldn't support his family well. now women can work in all sorts of professions beside teacher, waiter and nurse, and that's a good thing.
as far as wearing her own eyelashes, remember in the '60s even thing women wore girdles. many moms i knew wore makeup at home - god forbid a woman wasn't glamourous while she vaccuumed and washed the dishes. my mom never wore girdles or makeup, and my parents raised me to truly believe i could do anything - they raised me with the singing science records, read my sister and i a chapter of a book before bed every night, and let us read comic books.
when i was 6, i wanted a toy machine gun (who knows why?), and my mom and dad bought me one. at the store, the sales woman asked how old the boy was it was for, and when hearing it was for a girl, made a big push to make them buy me a doll (i hated dolls, btw). she was, i was told, even less happy when my folks bought me a science kit. the best gift i ever received in my life was the same year - it was a ventriloquist dummy. i had wanted it all year, more possibly than i've ever wanted anything, and instead of buying me toy cookware or a doll, my parents came through. i even got it early so i could enjoy it through vacation. every other girl i knew got dolls and accessories, toy cookware and like that. then they practiced being a wife and mother all year round. i got to sing in shows at school and practice to be a scientist, ventriloguist and whatever i wanted.
btw, i've spent years varying my wardrobe to suit myself. i've worn micro minis, men's work clothes, tiny bikinis, baggy jeans and oversized tees, babydoll dresses and baggy cargo shorts with hoodies. okay, no bikinis at my age, because i don't want to see me in them, but when i was younger, i felt like every day could mean a new costume party. i still feel that way sometimes. btw, when all the girls i knew dressed as princesses for halloween, i got a better (scarier) skeleton costume every year
i was born in '57, but the reason i graciously (smile and thanks) let men open doors for me is that in many cases, they seem to mean well. some women in their 20s and 30s i know choose to take it as a mortal insult. "does he think i can't open my own doors?" well, of course he knows you can open your own doors - he's being polite. i give points for anyone of any age or gender who's truly being polite.
and i understand why some people adopt a siege mentality - being a woman for almost 62 years has been hard, and has often been traumatic in the most literal sense - but i wish people would would calm down. take a minute to see if they know the intent behind the action or comment. every one of us is a product of our environment, so we aren't all coming from the same place. a guy who opens a door for you probably isn't sending a message that he thinks you're an incapable princess, and since we can't read minds, even if he was thinking that, it's not like i would ever know it.
i try to take people at face value. lots of people who aren't up to current standards mean no harm. i think that meaning no harm is an important thing - in fact, i suspect it's one of the most important things. if someone is offensive, mostly i just go away, although i have been known to reply, but never around my son or husband, as some rude and more aggressive men in my experience will then try and pick a physical fight with whatever male i'm with.
this thread brought back a memory for me. years ago, in the mid-'90s, i was buying my first bass combo. it was the first time i went into carvin (guess sending me years of catalogs paid off), and i went in, picked up a 100 watt combo, decided it was a decent weight. i didn't even try it. a sales guy came over (i still remember his name was mike). he said it was cool that i was there, and where was the guy i was buying the combo for. he really really asked me that! i guess he hadn't heard of carol kaye.
the next day, i came back with cash and told the manager (who became a friend) about that, telling him i wouldn't buy the combo from mike and didn't want him to get the commission. the manager was very nice about it, and he also told me the guy had been fired the day before, right after i had come in. apparently he had some other personality features that had offended other customers, as well.
ageism is a big deal for me, these days. when my elderly mother was in her last days, people would talk to her like she was a cute child instead of an experienced adult. i find that is often pointed at me IF i haven't dyed my hair recently or am wearing it off my face, as i look older that way. and how invisible i've become as a person unless my clothes seem too young to someone, and then they seem sort of offended.
have we made progress? well, sort of, soft of not. when i was a kid, unless you were poor it was very rare that wives worked at all - a working wife was a sign that the husband couldn't support his family well. now women can work in all sorts of professions beside teacher, waiter and nurse, and that's a good thing.
as far as wearing her own eyelashes, remember in the '60s even thing women wore girdles. many moms i knew wore makeup at home - god forbid a woman wasn't glamourous while she vaccuumed and washed the dishes. my mom never wore girdles or makeup, and my parents raised me to truly believe i could do anything - they raised me with the singing science records, read my sister and i a chapter of a book before bed every night, and let us read comic books.
when i was 6, i wanted a toy machine gun (who knows why?), and my mom and dad bought me one. at the store, the sales woman asked how old the boy was it was for, and when hearing it was for a girl, made a big push to make them buy me a doll (i hated dolls, btw). she was, i was told, even less happy when my folks bought me a science kit. the best gift i ever received in my life was the same year - it was a ventriloquist dummy. i had wanted it all year, more possibly than i've ever wanted anything, and instead of buying me toy cookware or a doll, my parents came through. i even got it early so i could enjoy it through vacation. every other girl i knew got dolls and accessories, toy cookware and like that. then they practiced being a wife and mother all year round. i got to sing in shows at school and practice to be a scientist, ventriloguist and whatever i wanted.
btw, i've spent years varying my wardrobe to suit myself. i've worn micro minis, men's work clothes, tiny bikinis, baggy jeans and oversized tees, babydoll dresses and baggy cargo shorts with hoodies. okay, no bikinis at my age, because i don't want to see me in them, but when i was younger, i felt like every day could mean a new costume party. i still feel that way sometimes. btw, when all the girls i knew dressed as princesses for halloween, i got a better (scarier) skeleton costume every year
i was born in '57, but the reason i graciously (smile and thanks) let men open doors for me is that in many cases, they seem to mean well. some women in their 20s and 30s i know choose to take it as a mortal insult. "does he think i can't open my own doors?" well, of course he knows you can open your own doors - he's being polite. i give points for anyone of any age or gender who's truly being polite.
and i understand why some people adopt a siege mentality - being a woman for almost 62 years has been hard, and has often been traumatic in the most literal sense - but i wish people would would calm down. take a minute to see if they know the intent behind the action or comment. every one of us is a product of our environment, so we aren't all coming from the same place. a guy who opens a door for you probably isn't sending a message that he thinks you're an incapable princess, and since we can't read minds, even if he was thinking that, it's not like i would ever know it.
i try to take people at face value. lots of people who aren't up to current standards mean no harm. i think that meaning no harm is an important thing - in fact, i suspect it's one of the most important things. if someone is offensive, mostly i just go away, although i have been known to reply, but never around my son or husband, as some rude and more aggressive men in my experience will then try and pick a physical fight with whatever male i'm with.
A good deal of it is ingrained in the culture. However the motivations behind certain actions aren’t as one dimensional as they sometimes appear.
I was born in ‘55. In my female dominated family (my mom was one of four sisters in a house with a strong mother and father who operated as an equal partnership) and they all cartied that upbringing into their own marriages and families.
I (sole male with two sisters) was brought up to be respectful and considerate (as the times defined it) towards women. You don’t hit a girl ever - even if she hits you first. You don’t tease the girls. You keep your hands to yourself. You hold the door for a woman. You stand when a woman enters the room. If you see a woman doing something physical, you make yourself useful and offer to help her without being asked first. If she picks up a cigarette you light it for her. You watch your language and what you say when you're in the company of women. You may compliment but never criticize. If a woman’s words or behavior truly annoys you, you don’t argue or become rude. You just walk away. This was the accepted mores of the times and part of the education a young male in any “good family” received with the goal he ”behave like a gentleman.”
Deep conditioning you receive in your early childhood can be difficult to overcome. But over the years I’ve had some success in that I’ve stopped doing much of that. I’ve frankly become very tired of having the intent behind actions and words misinterpreted. And being arrogantly told that the reasons I may think I’m doing or saying something aren’t the “real reasons” behind why I’m doing it.
My mom didn’t raise any stupid children. When you find yourself in a game with constantly shifting situational rules, you’re in a no-win situation. And the best strategy with a game like that is not to play at all. So I’ve since taken Gandalf's advice to Pippin to heart when he said: “It’s better if you don’t speak at all Peregrin Took.” I no longer compliment. I no longer stand. I no longer hold doors. I no longer offer help unless I’m directly asked. And I’ve become moderately wary whenever I’m speaking to or in the company of a woman I don’t know very well.
And I don’t believe the world has become a better place now that everything has become so highly emotional and politicized and so many people are adopting a siege mentality when it comes to interpersonal relations.
But maybe that’s just me. And I’m just the bass player. So what do I know.
Being raised as a "gentleman" and being considerate towards women in the ways you mentioned are not the same as doing what is fair and what is equitable. I'm *not* saying you are a bad person, so please try to not be offended by what I'm saying here. *People* shouldn't hit *people*, not just men shouldn't hit women. If a woman hits you, she should be held accountable just the same as if a man hits a woman or another man - under the law. Don't tease *people*, not just don't tease the girls. Physically weaker boys/men or men who like to date men also apply to this rule, as do your totally straight and muscular bros who might be struggling with a heavy load, a wardrobe choice, or a mental health issue. Leaping in to help women with lighting cigarettes, standing up when they enter the room, or carrying heavy boxes for them is exactly what perpetuates the idea that women are victims, weaker, and need to be coddled and cared for by men, which is exactly the opposite of what feminism has been trying to achieve. It's about people treating people like they are people, period. Not a different standard for women than for men or vice versa. One standard, for all people. If you are kind in these ways to all people, then continue to do so. If you're doing it because they are women, that is what feminism is about getting people to stop.
A good deal of it is ingrained in the culture. However the motivations behind certain actions aren’t as one dimensional as they sometimes appear.
I was born in ‘55. In my female dominated family (my mom was one of four sisters in a house with a strong mother and father who operated as an equal partnership) and they all cartied that upbringing into their own marriages and families.
I (sole male with two sisters) was brought up to be respectful and considerate (as the times defined it) towards women. You don’t hit a girl ever - even if she hits you first. You don’t tease the girls. You keep your hands to yourself. You hold the door for a woman. You stand when a woman enters the room. If you see a woman doing something physical, you make yourself useful and offer to help her without being asked first. If she picks up a cigarette you light it for her. You watch your language and what you say when you're in the company of women. You may compliment but never criticize. If a woman’s words or behavior truly annoys you, you don’t argue or become rude. You just walk away. This was the accepted mores of the times and part of the education a young male in any “good family” received with the goal he ”behave like a gentleman.”
Deep conditioning you receive in your early childhood can be difficult to overcome. But over the years I’ve had some success in that I’ve stopped doing much of that. I’ve frankly become very tired of having the intent behind actions and words misinterpreted. And being arrogantly told that the reasons I may think I’m doing or saying something aren’t the “real reasons” behind why I’m doing it.
My mom didn’t raise any stupid children. When you find yourself in a game with constantly shifting situational rules, you’re in a no-win situation. And the best strategy with a game like that is not to play at all. So I’ve since taken Gandalf's advice to Pippin to heart when he said: “It’s better if you don’t speak at all Peregrin Took.” I no longer compliment. I no longer stand. I no longer hold doors. I no longer offer help unless I’m directly asked. And I’ve become moderately wary whenever I’m speaking to or in the company of a woman I don’t know very well.
And I don’t believe the world has become a better place now that everything has become so highly emotional and politicized and so many people are adopting a siege mentality when it comes to interpersonal relations.
But maybe that’s just me. And I’m just the bass player. So what do I know.
Getting old?
What's your favorite sauce for tilapia?
