Female Bassist Threads

[WebJunk]

Feel like after reading 13 pages of posts I missed the point of this thread
I have a teenage girl I give bass lessons to. Its been almost two years and she is fast becoming a great musician. She's been doing it with cheap gear I've given her. Family is poor which is why i give her free lessons. She plays in a band with others from her school. Can say that she is in the band because she was the best bassist they could find. It is the future (which this entire thread seemed to miss) if she wants to take it to a more professional level that worries me.
The reality is most in the music industry do see a difference. Sometimes it is positive and sometimes negative. A friend that is a fantastic guitar player auditioned for a touring band just a few years ago and was not hired. They were seeking specifically a female guitarist. My friend was not hired because while she can play circles around the one (who was competent) that was hired, I found out it came down to appearance & physical attractiveness.
I know another band that was looking to add a female drummer when the male drummer left. Though there are some fantastic women drummers, from the ones they auditioned, none had the appearance they wanted so they hired a male drummer. Knowing one of the woman that auditioned, she was a better musician than who they hired.
Again reality, appearance is important today. Even for men. I have heard it much more often for women musicians than men. Even more in recent years. It is an entertainment business more today than a music business. With the more common use of backing tracks at concerts & studio musicians as of late, musicianship has become less important.
So where does the future lead for those like the girl I am giving lessons to?
Does she have to work on her appearance as much as her instrument?

Disclaimer: Please give me some allowances if I misused pronouns. Not meant as disrespect to anyone. Social language is not my strength with Asperger Syndrome so I sometimes use things wrong.

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

Feel like after reading 13 pages of posts I missed the point of this thread
I have a teenage girl I give bass lessons to. Its been almost two years and she is fast becoming a great musician. She's been doing it with cheap gear I've given her. Family is poor which is why i give her free lessons. She plays in a band with others from her school. Can say that she is in the band because she was the best bassist they could find. It is the future (which this entire thread seemed to miss) if she wants to take it to a more professional level that worries me.
The reality is most in the music industry do see a difference. Sometimes it is positive and sometimes negative. A friend that is a fantastic guitar player auditioned for a touring band just a few years ago and was not hired. They were seeking specifically a female guitarist. My friend was not hired because while she can play circles around the one (who was competent) that was hired, I found out it came down to appearance & physical attractiveness.
I know another band that was looking to add a female drummer when the male drummer left. Though there are some fantastic women drummers, from the ones they auditioned, none had the appearance they wanted so they hired a male drummer. Knowing one of the woman that auditioned, she was a better musician than who they hired.
Again reality, appearance is important today. Even for men. I have heard it much more often for women musicians than men. Even more in recent years. It is an entertainment business more today than a music business. With the more common use of backing tracks at concerts & studio musicians as of late, musicianship has become less important.
So where does the future lead for those like the girl I am giving lessons to?
Does she have to work on her appearance as much as her instrument?

Disclaimer: Please give me some allowances if I misused pronouns. Not meant as disrespect to anyone. Social language is not my strength with Asperger Syndrome so I sometimes use things wrong.

Looks have always been part of the equation, UNFORTUNATELY.

Very few photogenically challenged males in the bands either.

There seems to be a need to have both, but rarely does musical expertise make up the primary consideration.

Obviously if its part of the equation, leaving a critical part out, would not be prudent. I would think it would be wise to make the most/best of ALL your assets.

Yes, I have a daughter and abhor this, but if her chosen field demands this she can either play the game by her rules or by theirs.

That being said, once inside the "gate", I wouldn't give the powers that be even odds of running roughshod over her.

 

[clockworkcorpse]

This might be bordering on some form of violation... I'm just going to post this for those who have not seen this perspective. I did not create it, and I don't know who did, so thanks to the maker (lol) whomever you may be.

Make of it what you will.

 

[WebJunk]

Looks have always been part of the equation, UNFORTUNATELY.

Very few photogenically challenged males in the bands either.

There seems to be a need to have both, but rarely does musical expertise make up the primary consideration.

Things have changed in recent years.
In this past, if your budget did not support session players, you had to play your own instruments. Now it is easier & cheaper to bring in alternative (not necessarily experienced session) musicians as well as recording costs have decreased as a whole.
For playing Live, the technology for backing tracks & live Note Correction (instruments & vocals) has improved to the point, most concert goers never know. I went to a concert a few weeks ago. All three bands used backing tracks to some extent. The second band, the guitarist (who also played bass) played on only two or three songs out of eight. He faked it on the rest! He was quite energetic around the stage. But even the songs he did actually play live, his playing was weak and was what I consider amateurish.
It is the technology today that allows for less actual ability.

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

Things have changed in recent years.
In this past, if your budget did not support session players, you had to play your own instruments. Now it is easier & cheaper to bring in alternative (not necessarily experienced session) musicians as well as recording costs have decreased as a whole.
For playing Live, the technology for backing tracks & live Note Correction (instruments & vocals) has improved to the point, most concert goers never know. I went to a concert a few weeks ago. All three bands used backing tracks to some extent. The second band, the guitarist (who also played bass) played on only two or three songs out of eight. He faked it on the rest! He was quite energetic around the stage. But even the songs he did actually play live, his playing was weak and was what I consider amateurish.
It is the technology today that allows for less actual ability.

That may be the case, for a while.

That scam will go by the wayside because while the public tends to be stupid, the "musicians" that do this tend to overdo it and when they are found out, don't fair well.

 

[monkeyfinger]

<MODERATOR VOICE ON>
I've not said much in this discussion about males vs females for a while now. It has mostly been good discussion as a general topic. There are a couple of things I would like you to consider if you want to continue contributing to this discussion:

1. Please be mindful that we may have children reading this forum. Make sure the points you make are something you would be willing to discuss with a third grade class.
2. This forum is for discussion about bassists. I get that bassists live in the real world and face real world problems, but I would appreciate it if we keep the scope of this discussion to the art of bass playing.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Yeah, probably/possibly correct there.

In my case, not especially - unless the playing is exceptionally good/bad.

I believe the term is "Incel"

*SARCASM, lots of it - I can't believe they're allowed to vote. *Sarcasm end.
As maybe a younger man, born '77, raised by a woman who had a job, to support a family because the "father" was absent, I find your attitude thoroughly retrograde and somewhat disgusting.

The fact you even have to ask the question in this day and age labels you as an outlier. The get outs of "It wasn't a serious question", "I just wanted to stir the pot", "took a contentious position for the sake of engendering discussion" may have been relevant ~30 years back.

I'd like to think that as musicians, we're a bit better, more open-minded. Hopefully, you're the exception that proves the rule.

Wait - is there a person way up there on that high horse? Me old eyes can’t see that far. Or maybe it’s the glare coming off all that enlightenment. ;D

 

[Mike Whitfield]

I don't understand why people are so quick to want gender to be irrelevant. Or race, orientation, etc. I enjoy working and playing with women. They have a different way of approaching music, work problems, etc. Thay often have a different sense of humor that adds to a conversation. I hope the women that I've known over the years feel the same way about contributions that I make. Your gender or your orientation is one of the biggest defining characteristics of who you are. Why on earth would people want that to be irrelevant in any way? Has anyone heard Tal Wilkenfeld's new album? That's not an album where gender is irrelevant. That's part of why it's a great album. The fact that she's very pretty, combined with her playing which to me is both feminine and challenging, is all part of why she is such a compelling performer. I wouldn't want to take that away from her simply to be able to say that gender is irrelevant. Ladies on TB, if you want to start a thread about your male singer go right ahead. I'll watch your videos, same as I watch all the others. There's a way to be respectful without ignoring who a person is or what they look like.

Perhaps once again I'm misunderstanding the topic at hand. I've just seen many a post about gender not being relevant and it struck me as very odd why we would want that. It seems to be that working on our basic respect for each other would be a far better endeavor.

Well said.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

tl;dr version -
i'm an older female bass player who doesn't mind being called a female bass player. it's not ideal, but i can live with it. there are far worse things to be called.

long version -

to those who feel that female musicians are now a normal thing, the last time i went to hollywood guitar center was during december 2018. i was the only woman in a room packed with guitar and bass players - it was really busy, but 100% of the players who weren't me were guys. there could have been women in other rooms, but i didn't go to the other rooms. i just asked my husband if he remembered, and he said "yeah, it was definitely the dude zone".

i'm 61 and female, and i was playing guitar in bands from the time i was about 14. i noticed back then that girls took piano or violin lessons or they sang, but it was boys who wanted to rock. and, probably thanks to joan baez, a few girls played acoustic guitar, but it was mostly guys.

for years, when i went to guitar center 90% or more of the women there were mothers, wives or girlfriends there to support their male guitar or bass player or to stand around looking vague or bored. it wasn't until into the '90s that i started to see a significant number of women who were there for themselves, mostly in acoustic guitars and keyboards, but a small but growing number in guitars and basses.

in 1998 when i had an ad out for bass player available, i got over 80 replies. one of those replies was a band with a woman in it; all the rest were bands composed only of men, and this was a variety of genres. most of the guys were suprised i was a woman, but on the other hand, while a few felt a little reticent about my gender, i auditioned or jammed with about half the people who responded, and of them all, only one forming band had a problem with my being female.

as to why women dress sexy when they appear in bands or youtube videos, it's not just click bait, although if you're a woman who wants the most views, showing a little cleavage doesn't hurt. show business means putting on a show, dressing for success. when hillary clinton was running for office, SO many people who never comment on a male politician's attire talked about her pant suits, and it was mostly either negative or condescending. people said it wasn't feminine. why should someone running for president be feminine at all? but i notice that even powerful women usually wear dresses. women at formal parties are expected to wear dresses, and women under 40 are expected to wear low cut dresses. go to a formal wear stores - that's what you'll see. i used to wear a tux, and people acted like i was a novelty.

since i'm rambling on, men wear a "uniform" for playing certain kinds of music. it makes sense. if you see an upscale jazz band, particularly with a torch singer, the guys wear dressy pants, vests, nice hats and so on; the women wear dresses. and often sexy dresses and high heels, not just to be sexy - it's what the audience expects to see, and culturally, it's what we expect. women in metal from the '80s and '90s always wore scanty, tight clothes while men often wore t-shirts and black jeans.

when i started playing bass in early 1994, i made a conscious decision to dress in "tough" male clothes from my workboots and cargo shorts (yes, cargo shorts) or pants to my non-fitting shirts, always with sleeves. no makeup. no hair styling. and you know what? men actually used different tones of voice when i dressed female vs dressing to play bass. almost all men, not just musicians. gas station attendants, sales reps, you name it. they used different posture, different facial expressions.

to those here who think that gender isn't something that changes people's behavior and perspective nowadays, i know a woman with a busy non-music youtube channel, and she often gets comments about her appearance, that she's sexy (and she NEVER dresses sexy) or not sexy all the time. a male reviewer in the same genre has never received but two comments on his appearance, and he's been youtubing for six years with tons of subscribers.

btw, i think people point out gender for professions that aren't commonly associated with a particular gender. i always hear/read people who say "male nurse", for example, and twenty years ago if there were two people in a hospital room and one was a doctor, you always saw people address the male as doctor, even though that was often not the case.

i have no problem with people referring to me as a female bass player. it's what i am. it doesn't make me angry or sad. there are men who say it demeaningly, but you know what? i refuse to take it that way. and whenever someone mentions a band with a female bass player, hey - at least it lets us know there are women out there who play bass. and to me, that's a good thing. there are definitely worse things to be called.

Also well said. I love female musicians, but most of my music listening is on ripped CDs or Youtube in the background as I work. So they still get judged solely on the basis of skills. However, it’s worth pointing out that some hesitation in selecting female bands members for a gigging band may be due to the male musicians having wives. Tons of divorces start with platonic relationships and close, prolonged proximity.

 

[LBS-bass]

Also well said. I love female musicians, but most of my music listening is on ripped CDs or Youtube in the background as I work. So they still get judged solely on the basis of skills. However, it’s worth pointing out that some hesitation in selecting female bands members for a gigging band may be due to the male musicians having wives. Tons of divorces start with platonic relationships and close, prolonged proximity.

I would say that's unfortunate for the male members, having wives that don't trust them. Are they also not allowed to have female co-workers in the office?

As a married woman who works with other men, I will attest that mutual attractions do occur among co-workers of all types, but responsible adults handle them appropriately. If I find myself becoming attracted to a co-worker, I give myself "the talk" and avoid close contact with that person until those feelings subside. Usually doesn't take more than a few weeks for things to get back to normal. This is pretty much adulthood 101 and should be one of those things that men and women both take equal responsibility for.

 

[JEDI BASS]

Doesn't make a difference to me.

I'm used to see female players because my education is in classical music.

There is a lot of talent out there, male or female.


What I do notice, and I am sure I'm gonna get some furious replies, is that some female youtubers don't need to show up in the videos almost in their underwear, but I guess that helps with the likes. If you want to get comments about your music and not get comments about your body, don't dress like you are on the beach.

Men (for the most part) are visually stimulated creatures. Some women use this to their advantage. Men can do it too. Attractive people do just that... they attract. What do we constantly hear online about Aquaman? It's not talk about his acting ability, LOL.

I have played with women in bands. There's no denying that we have had more success because they were attractive. But, I've also heard from plenty of females that they appreciate the looks of our male musicians.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

I would say that's unfortunate for the male members, having wives that don't trust them. Are they also not allowed to have female co-workers in the office?

As a married woman who works with other men, I will attest that mutual attractions do occur among co-workers of all types, but responsible adults handle them appropriately. If I find myself becoming attracted to a co-worker, I give myself "the talk" and avoid close contact with that person until those feelings subside. Usually doesn't take more than a few weeks for things to get back to normal. This is pretty much adulthood 101 and should be one of those things that men and women both take equal responsibility for.

This!
When I was working i sane hours for several years, spending a lot of time with a female co-worker, I found myself too attracted. I brought it up with my wife and we rearranged things to have more time together. It took work, but was worth it. This happened a couple of times. Another woman I worked with seemed attracted to me. I made sure we weren’t alone together behind closed doors, treated her with respect but with emphasis on professionally, and after a bit things were fine.
It doesn’t have to go south!

 

[Mike Whitfield]

I would say that's unfortunate for the male members, having wives that don't trust them. Are they also not allowed to have female co-workers in the office?

As a married woman who works with other men, I will attest that mutual attractions do occur among co-workers of all types, but responsible adults handle them appropriately. If I find myself becoming attracted to a co-worker, I give myself "the talk" and avoid close contact with that person until those feelings subside. Usually doesn't take more than a few weeks for things to get back to normal. This is pretty much adulthood 101 and should be one of those things that men and women both take equal responsibility for.

Bands are rather different from most jobs though. For one thing, most musicians play in bands on the side, as a hobby. For another, most jobs don’t involve hanging out in bars late at night, or practicing in a small, tightly knit group. And if a band is successful, there are going to be overnight trips as well. Partners should definitely trust each other, but the flip side is that partners also shouldn’t make that trust difficult. We can pretend that there’s no difference between men and women, but that doesn’t change reality.

I’m not arguing that men and women shouldn’t be together in bands; I’m just saying that relationship should not be taken lightly.

 

[blue4]

I would say that's unfortunate for the male members, having wives that don't trust them. Are they also not allowed to have female co-workers in the office?

As a married woman who works with other men, I will attest that mutual attractions do occur among co-workers of all types, but responsible adults handle them appropriately. If I find myself becoming attracted to a co-worker, I give myself "the talk" and avoid close contact with that person until those feelings subside. Usually doesn't take more than a few weeks for things to get back to normal. This is pretty much adulthood 101 and should be one of those things that men and women both take equal responsibility for.

Most people with a sense of responsibility and respect for their significant other do this everyday. However, life isn't always so easy. Your job doesn't always allow you to avoid contact for weeks. A person whose marriage is already strained may view declining to hire an attractive musician as being responsible. Do we commend them for taking steps to ensure their marriage works, or do we bash them because they didn't hire someone of the opposite sex?

 

[Jokei]

Wait - is there a person way up there on that high horse? Me old eyes can’t see that far. Or maybe it’s the glare coming off all that enlightenment. ;D

Hang on, I thought that post was removed.... Read on, it get loads more exciting.

 

[LBS-bass]

Most people with a sense of responsibility and respect for their significant other do this everyday. However, life isn't always so easy. Your job doesn't always allow you to avoid contact for weeks. A person whose marriage is already strained may view declining to hire an attractive musician as being responsible. Do we commend them for taking steps to ensure their marriage works, or do we bash them because they didn't hire someone of the opposite sex?

Life isn't a series of black and white situations, of course. And every situation is different. I'm not one who believes that every marriage is going to work or that people always get married for the right reasons. Sometimes people legit fall hopelessly in love with people they're not married to, and maybe in that case it's better for everyone involved if things change in a drastic way. Life is messy. But generally, if you're in a good marriage, you're going to do what you need to do to keep that intact, and you hope that others will do their part. I've traveled with guys, shared hotel rooms with guys, you take this bed, I take that one, my turn to change in the bathroom, don't you love my polka dot pajamas? Sweet dreams and I'll see you in the morning. I mean, we're adults and I wouldn't be working and traveling with someone I didn't trust enough to share a room with without feeling threatened. My husband is fine with it. He figures if I ever decide I don't want to be with him, that's my choice and it's not up to him. Ironically, that's one of the things that makes me love him more.

 

[J_Bass]

Men (for the most part) are visually stimulated creatures. Some women use this to their advantage. Men can do it too. Attractive people do just that... they attract. What do we constantly hear online about Aquaman? It's not talk about his acting ability, LOL.

I have played with women in bands. There's no denying that we have had more success because they were attractive. But, I've also heard from plenty of females that they appreciate the looks of our male musicians.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't do it and then be offended when someone notices.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Hang on, I thought that post was removed.... Read on, it get loads more exciting.

Not a problem, just tweaking your nose.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Life isn't a series of black and white situations, of course. And every situation is different. I'm not one who believes that every marriage is going to work or that people always get married for the right reasons. Sometimes people legit fall hopelessly in love with people they're not married to, and maybe in that case it's better for everyone involved if things change in a drastic way. Life is messy. But generally, if you're in a good marriage, you're going to do what you need to do to keep that intact, and you hope that others will do their part. I've traveled with guys, shared hotel rooms with guys, you take this bed, I take that one, my turn to change in the bathroom, don't you love my polka dot pajamas? Sweet dreams and I'll see you in the morning. I mean, we're adults and I wouldn't be working and traveling with someone I didn't trust enough to share a room with without feeling threatened. My husband is fine with it. He figures if I ever decide I don't want to be with him, that's my choice and it's not up to him. Ironically, that's one of the things that makes me love him more.

I have a pretty solid marriage, we have an argument about every leap year. I would not accept that with my wife, and I certainly wouldn’t put her in the position of accepting it with me. If it works for you and your husband, more power to you.

 

[Jokei]

Not a problem, just tweaking your nose.

You would have to pick my worst feature ;<)