Would you tell me a little about yourself and your job at Fender?
Yes. Okay. I returned back to LA after my stint in the Army. I left and it was good but came back and it was bad.
At Fender?
No. In LA. My two brothers were beaten up and hurt by the cops when they were protesting against police violence. I guess that was around ‘71 because my mom moved to Buena Park in ‘70 and that happened right afterwards. Same stuff happening today. Nothing changes and no one learns
Before my (draft) number came up I worked at a cabinet shop. So I went to Fender, which was pretty much walking distance from my mom, and they hired me on. I had to join the union. That was the deal if I wanted the job.
Can you describe what the factory was like? It’s gone now so people want to know.
Well, most of the buildings are still there. Here’s the thing… a lot of people think that the factory was just one big building, right? With everyone working on everything in a K Mart sized factory set up. Well, there were many buildings and not all were right next to each other. There was the building where I worked, the amp buildings, offices for the bean counters, R and D, and all sorts of others spread around the town. Okay?
Last time I drove by… that was, oh I guess, 5 or 6 years ago, I didn’t look like it did. I mean, it’s clean now. Not that it wasn’t before, you know? It’s just updated, I guess. Looks newer… though it’s the same place, of course.
Did you meet Leo Fender or…?
Yeah, I met Mr. Fender on my first month. We was having a company picnic. Someone was retiring or something like that. He had a glass eye, you know? And so I notice and I says to him, “Hey, how do you like your eye?” But I didn’t know it was Mr. Fender. Anyway, I ask him about his eye because my brother got his eye knocked out and he was thinking of getting a glass eye too to make him look pretty again. So Mr. Fender looks at me and says “Huh?”. And then I guess he figured out what I said because he just laughed and laughed. My supervisor comes to me, “Hey, what did you say? You want to talk to Mr. Fender, you talk to me first. You got that?” My supervisor, he was grouchy. Never happy and always wanting things his way all the time. Even when he was told to do something he would do it his way and be mad if he saw it was something else.
I met with Esther at that time, too. She reminded me of my aunt Nina. My mom made me reganadas… ummm… cinnamon cookies to bring, okay?... So I gave her some. She smiled and that made my day.
Who is Esther?
Mrs. Fender.
Did Leo visit the factory much?
No. I never saw Mr. Fender when I was at work.
Who else was there at the plant?
Did you mean working staff or others?
Others, I guess.
Oh, well people would come in lots of the time. It is like today [with tours], but not so many, I think. But if a special band was in town to play a concert or special musician wanted a special guitar they would come by and walk through the floor to select the wood. Sometimes they would be with Mr. Taverus (?) and sometimes with someone else. Someone from engineering or R and D. Maybe a front office person. You do not stop to talk when meeting special people. Your supervisor will come up after and tell you that it was not right to talk and you must continue working.
So by special guitars, what do you mean?
Special guitars were made for special people. Special musicians. Right? They would come to look at the bodies and select which ones looked the best for them. And the necks, too. And then the special guitars were made away from the line.
What year was this? Do you mean the Custom Shop?
No, before the Custom Shop.
So there was a sort of pre-Custom Shop thing happening?
Yes. As I said to you, special musicians would call or come to ask for special guitars to be made. Sometimes we would make something different, you know what I mean by that, to fit what the musician wants because they have the sound in their heads that they want. Or a feel in their hands that they want. Or maybe as I said to you, a special look… umm… appearance to their guitar.
Yes, this happened for special players. Not for the average type of person from the street, as far as I know.
Wow. I’ve never heard of that.
My first job after the amplifiers was pulling glued blanks and trace them out. After I would rough cut and hand them to be shaped. I would cut necks, too. Bodies were easy. Necks harder.
My supervisor - I can’t remember his name right now, but I will - he was un tonto (?). You did what he told you because he said he knew best more than any other. I was in the Army, okay, so you know it don’t matter if your boss is an idiot. I knew to do what I was told and keep my mouth shut. But he told me to cut this certain way and I have experience to know I could do better. So when he was not there I cut my way and when he was there I cut his way. Stupid. There was lots of that happening.
But I liked music and would smile to myself seeing a Fender guitar on a poster or in a magazine. That guitar, I would say to myself, came through my hands. I cut its shape myself and now it is there. So yes. I would be proud of my work. Not like an oven repairman who does not see his work go out into the world. Or a maid who mops the floors. You understand?
Yes. Can you tell me about life at Fender in the 1970s.
We worked in a long building. Everyone to the sides. Different parts did different things. Different people do different things. Everyone at their station. I like working hard, so I walked around to learn. But the supervisors didn’t like that. “You are not getting paid to learn! You must do your one action and nothing more!!” But my dad told me to always give more than I ever receive so I always tried to do a little extra and make it better. Like I say, this made others angry. The union, too.
I am told to do my job to myself and hand the item to the next fellow. He does his job and he hands the item to the woman next in the line. You do not do more than they tell you to do. No extra steps to help someone else. This is how it is supposed to work in factories. But we didn’t have time to do more anyway. If I did not do my job others after me would suffer by waiting. The number [of instruments] had to keep going. Everybody, they knew that people wanted our guitars. Fast and rapid was the way.
There was the supervisors and then there was the high office managers. It’s a small business, really, and we would know everyone, so word spread when corporation people would be coming. They looked at us once in a while and poked their noses to watch, but they were hands-off because they didn’t know anything about guitars. Afraid to get their tie caught in a machine, I always thought. (Laughing) Sometimes they would visit after a machine would break down. They would stare at it hard to think that staring would somehow fix the problem. Some of the high managers were smart men. Many others wanted more and more and never did anything good for us.
More and more?
More production of instruments.
By high managers, who do you mean?
Corporate managers.
Tell me about the change when the company was being sold.
Well, yes. It was not a good time so Fender was going to be sold or closed. Some thought that it was the end. No more Fender. I even applied for other jobs because the rumor was all of the people let go and the equipment was to be sold. During lunch or after work we would talk. Some said that the corporation was taking money from Fender to pay bills but not giving anything back. And I think this was so! That is one reason we didn’t get better. But there were plenty of other reasons, too, of course.
The corporation tried to sell us… Fender. There was a… ummm.. recession in the nation so no one had money and no one wanted to buy us. Word was if Fender remained at all it would only import guitars because that is the rumor, right? None of this was good news, right? Everyone thought the end of our jobs was coming soon. And as we said before a new set of people had come to make changes.
Tell me about them… the new set of people.
Okay. The corporation was not happy. They wanted more guitars to go out and more money to come in. That is how all businesses must work, so alright. No one could make guitars like us - which is a very strange thing to say because we were not like a big IBM company in Minnesota or a Boeing company in Seattle that has thousands of workers - but we were the best. But new people came to say we were not the best. And...ummm… they took us to the side to show us the issues. I, for one, understood and agreed just as I had said many times in the past. “I am doing things wrong. I can do this better”, I said. But many others, they did not agree. It was a bad time and lots of angry people.
We could change I thought. My supervisor he did not think so. He had been doing things his way in his area and it was the right way in his eyes. New people tried to change the Fender company for the better and old people wanted to keep Fender as it is. So there is a battle of personalities and sometimes some loud shouting. This lasted a long time… maybe months or more. So as I say, it was a bad time. Like the cloud that hangs over....
Was Dan Smith or Bill Shultze there? Did you work with them?
Dan Smith was there almost every week. Bill Shultze not so much. Not so much at all, really.
I saw Bill yell once. I heard him from at the end. He was very very upset. I do not know why, but I kept my head down and was glad it was not me he was yelling at. Everyone became quiet and with machines running you could still hear the pin drop. Whew!
Dan is a big man, but he died, I think. I liked him very much. He was a very very smart man and spoke to me well. I remember him telling [us] to stop thinking of the big numbers. Stop making more instruments but to make guitars that were better. That was a big announcement for us and some thought it meant that the business was going to get smaller and we would get fired until only a small number remained. But it was not that way. Or that was not his intention, I think. He wanted guitars the way Mr. Fender did at the start. He said that is what the people want now. But oh so many arguments from the old hands. And the union, too. They were not happy for so many reasons.
But as I say, Dan was a big man and not from California so it was something to see when he would get mad at the supervisors for not following as he instructed. Sometimes a Captain orders his ship to turn but the rudder does not obey.
I have a 1982 reissue Jazz Bass. Can you tell me about the reissues in the early 1980s?
Reissues? I do not know what you mean.
Oh, okay. Yes. Okay.
We received changes sometimes. This is how it works… the R and D would tell the engineers what to do and down the line they would tell me what to do. That is how it worked. For me this was a difference in templates. Okay? I would get two or three templates and this is what I would use. When the changes came to make better guitars my job was cutting. But we would listen to a different way to cut or drill or route. Classes were made and we would go for an hour or two each week. And that is how we began to learn to make changes. As I say, I liked to learn what it was to do other jobs and to do them different or right so I was happy at the classes.
So wait. Fender held special classes to basically re-teach their employees how to make guitars? Did they bring in instructors or who taught the classes?
Yes. But not just teaching to make guitars. Okay? All instruments.
The classes made some people upset. They did not like to be told that they were doing their jobs wrong and believed they were the top best. They say everyone in the world playing Fender meant that they were right. But that is not what was really happening. Okay? And I knew that because I agreed with the new ways.
So I know that I was told a set of templates was coming and that we were going to the old ways. I mean, the old way of shaping the guitars. Right? When you lay a template down it looks the same but maybe it is just a little different. The difference is a big thing with engineers and tolerance and also with players who desire the old ways. We want to build guitars the old ways so we used the old machines and the old hands come to talk to us about the old ways. And this is important because you must still remember Fender is thinking of going out of business so we need to join together to do this job. And also Japan, they are beginning to make our guitars for us so it was a time when we believed most guitars would never be made in LA again.
But we did make good guitars at that time because we had workers and managers told us to do better so we did. And old hands who came to stand beside and watch and help and teach. And maybe some who stepped in to do the production, too.
I am thinking back…
The Telecaster came first as the reissue because, you know, it is the easiest to make. The shape is easy. Okay? And it does not take as much effort to create a Telecaster. Not like a Stratocaster or Jaguar or Jazz Bass. The managers thought this through. When we made the Telecasters the people wrote and said we were good again. For us this was the start of a difference and maybe we would keep our jobs, I hoped and thought. But it was a slow difference that did not happen overnight. The way we were building guitars was changing according to new methods, but we wanted to build better guitars that used old methods too so it was an interesting time.
The Stratocaster came next and then we began to build on the basses months or so later. We made other guitars and basses. Not just reissues... right? Other guitars and basses, too.
Were there other instruments that were expected to be reissues? Other models?
I do not know. Maybe. But probably no.
Did they have old guitars on hand that they used as examples for you to follow for the reissues?
Yes and no. I do not know how they chose the guitars to be made from. I was told old guitars were come in… bought by Fender. Dan Smith bought them, I think. Or it could have been Mr. Taverus (?). No, it was Dan because I remember him bringing some from his car to show us in the rain.
These are guitars that Fender sold in the 1950s and 1960s that would be our goal. But some of us laughed. All guitars are different, you see, because everything was done by eye and by hand. If Victor is sick one day then Michael would take his place sanding and shaping, so the guitar would be different because Michael is not the same as Victor. Okay? Today I have seen the video of computers and they cut everything the same. They let the machines do the work now. But we would let the pin router work and it could be dangerous if your fingers are in the wrong place. But each man is different and so each guitar was therefore different.
That makes sense and explains why there are differences between my bass and an actual 1962 bass.
Again, I say yes and no. The tools used to make the guitars and basses were the same as the old ways. And the workers left from the old ways were participating, and special care was taken because the Fender business needed to be very very good. So the instruments were made as they did then. Maybe some of the very old parts were taken and put in place, too. But as I said to you before, guitars are different and people are different so you will get a different result each time. Your bass… your... ummm... reissue bass… is a match to a bass somewhere in this world because that was the template to be used for that model. But it is not a match to all 1962 basses and if you think so you are crazy. And also, some of the new machines just would not do what they did in the old ways. I mean, maybe we could change the machines to perform differently but that would take more time and cost money Fender did not have. You must remember what was happening. Okay?
Do you remember how many reissues were made each year? Or…
No. I cannot help you with that answer. I built guitars and basses, but I did not stop to count them! (Laughing) That is crazy!! (Laughing)
How about why certain features were made for each different instrument?
What do you mean?
Well, for example, the routes might not be the same from one year to the next.
You have never worked in a factory, right?.
I’m an engineer, but no. I’ve never worked in a factory.
A worker does his job many times each day and each week. A worker does not make the changes because that is not his job. These changes happen when new jigs or templates are given. Or a new tool is used to replace a broken tool. Or a new way is discovered to increase time. Or a fault is found that must be amended. So changes happen, yes, but these are happening from the people like you who are the engineers and departments who make these decisions. I cannot tell you why the decisions were made. This is a factory, so we must guess that the manager wants to make more guitars better but faster and not cost as much. These are the goals of all management. The decisions appear in the final product.
Were changes to the instruments made...
I will tell you a funny story. The changed [reissue] Stratocasters were given to celebrities. Many celebrity musicians came. I also came to watch. The guitar player Dick Dale, do you know him? He tried to tell me how to make a guitar. I told him I already build his guitar and I did a very good job, but he does not listen. He wants to tell me a better way to make it. So I listen. But he will not stop talking. On and on. This is a half hour… 45 minutes... and he is still talking. I tried to go away, but no. I tried to give him a drink and again, no because he does not drink. I move to go but no. I finally hold up my hand and say, I must use the facilities. And he says, okay, I do, also, so let’s go. I can tell you more about building guitars in there. I stand and he is beside me talking without stop while we both use the men’s restroom. I must hurry to finally get away from him so I concentrate and push like never before. But he could not leave because he is not finished, but still he is talking even after I leave. I can hear him from outside the door. Oh my my, he could talk!!! A man who can use the restroom and talk at the same time is too much for me.
And this is an important story, you see, because Dan comes to me to touch me on the shoulder and asks exactly what Dick says. He must know if we can make our Stratocaster guitars better so they ask me what the player says. I tell them, oh no, I cannot talk that much! But this is a reason why I was happy. The managers would never stop to be better. Okay?
Who else was given the Stratocasters?
I am sorry. I do not remember this. It was a gathering of many special musicians. Fender musicians.
What were the differences after CBS sold the company?
Differences were happening before Fender was sold. Right? I went to classes to learn new ways so differences were happening slowly everywhere. We were not sure what would become of Fender, so we tried very hard to do better. All of us. All. And I think that we were doing a very good job. My supervisor had retired to Illinois… no, Iowa... instead of being mad at Fender so that became a better time for me. Our instruments were better, too.
Even if this was so, the money, as I said before, was not available so Fender was going to go out of business, we thought. Everyone would be let go from their jobs and everything would be sold. This is what we expected in, ummm, 1983 or maybe 1984. In 1985 our factory closed. I do not remember when, but it was very early in the year, I believe. Oh… March or April maybe. The Japan factory continued. But the managers said “No. Do not worry. This is not the end. Japan will not be the center for all Fender instruments.” But it was difficult to believe this.
As I say, no one had money so no one wanted to buy the Fender business. So finally, the company decided to sell to Bill and the managers and employees, but not the location. That was not included so now where do we go? To Japan? We have no money! What are we going to do? We moved to Brea and then to Corona. I helped move the equipment… the presses and routers and drills. These are the large items. Some that I had repaired was taken but some was sold.
I began polishing the finishes. That was my new job. (Laughing) I was not good but I learned. Guitars and basses would fly from my hands. (Laughing) Oh my my. I hit my friend two times in a row with two instruments. He was my friend but he did not like my skills at the beginning.
(Laughing) How did you like the new factory? That is the current plant, right?
Yes. The same one now. The new building was so much bigger. This was good and bad. We felt to be a family before, but now the area made us spread out and not join together as much. And new workers arrived to start. So there were pains in growing and teaching and learning all over again. I would be guessing we were doing better after a year [at Corona]. It takes a team time to adjust and come together, but from there at that point we were very good and became the best again.
Do you play an instrument?
I play the tuba. Well... I did. I do not have the lungs or the lips to play it now. So I try to play the vihuela, but I am not very good.
But not guitar?
Well, the vihuela is a guitar. You know? It is like a ukulele and guitar so to speak mixed together in a way. I know how to make a guitar because I have trained and performed every step. I could tell you what is right and wrong with a guitar and could design a guitar, too, because that was also part of some of the classes to understand how everything worked together to make the instrument play and sound and feel correctly. But I do not play very well yet. My hands, you can see them, they are too old and broken to give my best. My fingers are not the same now.
Can we go back to the Fullerton days for just a bit? Can you tell me how the wood was selected and why some guitars/basses have multiple pieces while others have fewer?
The wood was delivered by truck. Sometimes once a week. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. It was sawn to length and I would use the joiner to create stacks and we would glue the stacks together for the press. Sometimes the wood was wider and sometimes it was not as wide. Our managers set the decision to make certain guitars out of a certain number of pieces. I believe the width of wood was given by the supplier and this determined the number of pieces for a body. Sometimes raw wood was wider. Sometimes not as wide. It is a cost issue, okay? Fender buys what is the best deal.
Would you like another story?
Sure.
The...ummm… the blades in the joiner were dulling. This just means we must add new blades. So this happened, but not correctly. So to get a straight line we would cut one way and flip and cut again. This is how I say things would be bad sometimes. It did not last long. A supervisor came and said it was no good. But a woman, she was passing by and said, use a needle adjuster to get it right.
A needle adjuster? Do you mean a dial indicator?
Yes. It might be a dial indicator. And all of us men we looked at her like she was crazy. The next morning I came to work and the joiner was right. So I think she fixed it over night. Or maybe in the early morning.
That’s pretty cool. So the workers fixed their own machines then?
No. It was better to work and not make a mess of what you needed to do your job correctly. But there were some people who could fix the machines. Mr. Taverus was one. I was one.
Did you set aside nice pieces of wood - the ones with flames or burl - for the natural finishes?
No. That was never done. Not before 1984, at least. A stack of bodies would be finished in one color and then another stack would be finished in another color. We are moving quickly, right? So we are not told to separate the wood or the bodies. Some wood was beautiful. Very very pretty to look at. Whenever we could do so quickly I tried to join wood that matched, but this was not always possible under the circumstances. An amount of bodies had to be made each day to earn my wages. Wood would be finished with no purposeful sense to what it looked like.
So I mean this. You have a spray with a can full of black. Yes? So it does not make money to wait and spray one guitar black and the next guitar white. You spray all that come with the full can of black and then the next stack with the full can of white. More instruments can be completed this way. Does this make sense?
Yes. It does. Did you ever see the Japanese Fenders that were being made? Were those shown to the workers in Fullerton?
No. Well.. I think, yes. Now that I think about it, yes, I guess I did. I saw them because the parts and bodies and necks were apart piece by piece. I think this was during lunch. It could not be done during the production day. It is a different thing to look at the work of someone who has taken your place. Many were not happy and snorted. Some pointed out the Japan tools must be brand new to get such cleaner routes and that we could do the same if given new tools, too. To those who were honest, it was plain the imports were made by excellent craftsman and their procedures were sound. I, myself, I took the Japanese instruments to be a challenge because I am proud of my work and did not like being second place. This is probably around the time when we were building the Telecasters so a movement of determination swept over me and my friends.
Determination?
Yes, to build to be the best. A man must be prideful in his work. This is what I was taught. And so this is why I listened to the new manager and why my supervisor quit. In my eyes we must do more and in his eyes we were doing less to change to the new ideas. Same instruments but different views.
How many types of guitars and basses did you make?
All of Fender but not the acoustical guitars or the Rhodes or the drums, of course. This was another area and not with us. Another plant with different workers. So all that passed on the line before me.
You become very good at a job when you do it all week long for months. I could make the finish shine and gleam so it was like a mirror. I would not accept less. That is the worker you want, you see? A craftsman who can do the job better than any other and faster, too.
Did you ever make a guitar for yourself or did any of the others make one for themselves?
No. There was never any time to do this. And it was not permitted.
How many guitars a day were finished in your area?
Well, I will tell you that many guitars are built late in the year and that means we must work hard to complete the numbers. Orders come in after the show in Chicago, Illinois and we would hurry to get them done before Christmas. I would go to the Sound Market show, too. Do you know of this? Anaheim? I would visit to see the other guitars on display. In those days the shapes were changing and so I would look and marvel. Yes, it was always interesting to see the work of others like me. I could tell what they had done to build their instruments as such. Some of the designs were so fine. Some so bad that I did not like them.
Okay. So let me get this straight. There were more guitars made in the latter part of the year than the early part of the year? Does this mean the guitars built in the early part of the year might have been better quality since they were not rushed?
What? No. All guitars are built the same after the changes were shown to us. This did not happen quickly so the beginning times… starting months when the changes were told… there was… ummm… friction. Lots of friction. And arguments between the managers and supervisors. But slowly things on the line began to change and after some people left it became easier and better.
And I tell you, I was going to quit because of the bickering and angry voices. And of course the Fender company closing. So it is better not to want to stay in such a company. But I stayed. It is pride as I have told you. Do you understand this?
In the Army you hear a whistle and you must stop. You hear another whistle and you must run. You do not know why the whistle blows, okay? But you must follow and trust to stay alive. And so I said to myself, do not quit.
The final product… instruments… were checked closer and… ummm… bad examples were removed from the sales... shipping. Everything, every station, was taught to do the job better. The final product was important. The number of correct instruments was more important than the number of instruments. No matter what time or month or whatever you said.
When did you leave Fender?
I married and we moved to Idaho. To the Falls and then later to Portland. Her brother, Tony, was a fine carpenter and owned his company. I worked with him for 7 years. He died in an accident from sliding off of the road into a tree. The company came to my wife and we continued on.
Do you talk to any of your coworkers or is there a reunion at times for Fender employees?
Ha.. (laughing). No. Nothing like that. I do not keep in touch. I have moved on. And it was a long time ago in my life.
Do you have any photos or anything like that from your time at Fender?
I do not think so. We left California after I married so it is usually the wife who likes to take photographs for memories. I do not have any pictures now but what you see.
