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Fender Japan

#41
MarkoYYZ; I think I read somewhere that when FMIC bought the company from CBS, they got all the licenses and rights, but none of the manufacturing plants. This lead to a year or so where all new Fender instruments came from Japan. Basically, there was a year in the mid '80s where no new MiA instruments were produced until FMIC could get their own production facilities underway. Is that correct?
 
#42
Malak, that sounds about right, but it could have been even longer than a year. There is some really good reading in those links I posted. There are slight variations in the story based on people's sources or recollection, but if you have a Fender dated between 1984 and 1987, there's an 80% chance it came from Fugijen (IIRC).

Considering the repeated references to their higher quality, it's likely that anything from 1982 to 1996 is equal to anything made Stateside, and anything made since then as a non-export model is superior to anything that is made at lower cost for the US market, though many of those models may still have been unique from anything made in Corona and hard to make an apples to apples comparisons (Jazz Bass Special, Power Jazz Special, hollow bodies, etc...).

I've never owned a US Fender, but this is an opinion that is out there in great numbers and I'm simply aggregating that into my response in this thread. My first bass was an Ibanez Roadstar II which came from the same factory, so maybe that neck is the reason why Fender Japan products might hit home for me at a higher rate than other basses do.

CBS bought Fender for $13 million and sold it off for $12.5 mil after dropping the ball with the company that changed music globally and could have disappeared entirely after 84, which is kind of crazy to imagine.
 
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#44
MarkoYYZ said:
Malak, that sounds about right, but it could have been even longer than a year. There is some really good reading in those links I posted. There are slight variations in the story based on people's sources or recollection, but if you have a Fender dated between 1984 and 1987, there's an 80% chance it came from Fugijen (IIRC).

Considering the repeated references to their higher quality, it's likely that anything from 1982 to 1996 is equal to anything made Stateside, and anything made since then as a non-export model is superior to anything that is made at lower cost for the US market, though many of those models may still have been unique from anything made in Corona and hard to make an apples to apples comparisons (Jazz Bass Special, Power Jazz Special, hollow bodies, etc...).

I've never owned a US Fender, but this is an opinion that is out there in great numbers and I'm simply aggregating that into my response in this thread. My first bass was an Ibanez Roadstar II which came from the same factory, so maybe that neck is the reason why Fender Japan products might hit home for me at a higher rate than other basses do.

CBS bought Fender for $13 million and sold it off for $12.5 mil after dropping the ball with the company that changed music globally and could have disappeared entirely after 84, which is kind of crazy to imagine.
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The MIAs from this period often had parts from multiple model years in them, as well. This was the time of the Fullerton to Corona factory move.
 
#45
hi mosfed.. this is a great japanese website.. they take 2 or 3 days to deliver here.. (our guitarist had ordered a vemuram jan ray).. my favourite is the "other brands" under bass.. chk out the japanese companies making JBs and pre's, like crews maniac etc.. (major GAS warning)

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edit: (some goodies on their website)

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#46
My problem with those MIJ's is that most of them have a basswood body. I owned a '62 reissue JB in the 90's, tried 4 different set if pickups and it never sounded decent. Later on I bought 2 other basses with basswood bodies and they also sounded unfocused in the mids and dull sounding.
I'd buy a guitar though as basswood seems to work just fine on a guitar. I actually believe that those mid 80's MIJ Strats are amazing.
I know it is been discussed many times before so no need to start a basswood controversy here.
 
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#49
MarkoYYZ said:
Most of my "understanding" comes from a book called "The History of the Fender Bass". I'm at my office now and don't have access to it, but it led me to do more research online and all that info is still out there (see links below).

I called it a "different company" because it was never wholly owned by Fender (as most would assume). Since 1982, Fender USA has been the primary OEM customer of Fender Japan - a legally separate company from Fender USA. Fender Japan contracted the manufacturing to Fujigen early on, then expanded to include other factories in the 90s. MIJ applies to anything made at Fujigen - with it's heydey from 1985-1994 (?) - while CIJ applies to parts or models that are contracted out to other factories.

It's a fairly widely known fact that the Japanese were building exceptional knockoffs at the same time as US quality was going into the tank. The director of Fender (under CBS at the time, 1982) visited several of the factories doing knockoffs with the intent of sourcing their own Japanese made instruments to compete with them. He was so impressed with the factory that was doing the high quality Greco models (Fujigen Gakki), that they came to arrange a joint venture whereby Fujigen would produce "Fender Japan" instruments and their local partners would be their 2 main distributors; Yamano Music and Kanda Shokai,. Fender owned 38% of the original company, but details aren't clear on the legalities of the relationship after the CBS sale. It appears that the "Fender Japan" of today (and likely since 85) is owned by Yamano Music and Kanda Shokai, who handle their domestic market as well as the contract manufacturing relationship with Fender USA.

When CBS decided to bail on Fender in 84, Yamano loaned money to the group that bought Fender out from under CBS and when FMIC was founded in 1985, it couldn't possibly have owned Fender Japan since money was borrowed from Yamano to buy the rights to the name, the patents, etc... It's likely that part of the "deal" to the 1985 investors included some sort of lifetime brand/licensing arrangement that allows Fender Japan to do what it does in terms of custom models and such as long as the USA market was out-of-bounds.

Yamano to this day still owns a piece of FMIC and its director was inducted into the Fender HOF the same year James Jamerson was.

http://www.music-trade.co.jp/Fenderjapanserial.html
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http://www.guitaristsource.com/guitars/fender-history.shtml#cbsYears
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Japan
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the info, but my question is pretty simple. I know that Wikipedia is not the greatest source around - we have probably all found misrepresentations here and there.

So just to be clear - what you are saying is - Fender Japan is NOT a division of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation as Wiki states below?

Fender Japan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fender Japan is the Japanese division of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation.

PS: Can you even imagine what the stuff coming out of THEIR custom shop looks like?

BassHappy
 
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#50
BassHappy said:
So just to be clear - what you are saying is - Fender Japan is NOT a division of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation as Wiki states below?
Click to expand...
I guess you're taking the most literal interpretation of "division".

It seems like the most simple way - though not a very clear way - to say that Fender Japan is the Japanese affiliate company of FMIC. Companies can have many division in many countries, it doesn't mean that one of them owns all the others. There are an infinite number of ways to do these things.

For example - Pepsi Canada is not owned by Pepsico USA (or whatever the official name is). It's a separate company that has negotiated a license to produce Pepsi products for the Canadian market. If the factory at Pepsi Canada was able to supply extra production capacity to Pepsico USA, or have a setup that allowed for special cans or flavors or something, then they could also be a supplier to the "parent" company at the same time. They may or may not make other variants of Pepsi not available in the US, but that comes down to what the agreement allows.

I have read Fender's SEC documents with respect to their planned IPO. At no point in any of the financials or operating costs is Fender Japan mentioned, aside from the % of FMIC that is owned by the 2 Japanese partners. It's basically an external entity that is both A) one of their OEM suppliers and B) their Japanese distributor as well as C) licensee to produce their own unique Fender models.

I tried to explain how and why the rights/licensing agreement may have come to exist in 1985, but that would be a very private document that none of us are ever going to see and it has probably changed in form several times over the past 29 years. We know for sure that at some point the joint venture was terminated and it became the OEM/distribution thing as noted above. It stands to reason that if CBS-Fender owned 38% of Fender Japan, and sold it to Bill Schultz and his investor group in 1985, that the ownership would carry over - but that same investor group received loans and production guarantees from the Japanese partners, so it's likely the money was partly a buyout of the 38% ownership, and partly an investment into what became FMIC (and they still own a sizable chunk of it). Yamano and Kanda Shokai own about 27% combined of FMIC, while at the same time paying rights and distribution fees in the millions to FMIC in order to handle their Japanese distribution. Further still, under a different agreement, FMIC pays Fender Japan to handle marketing in Japan.

Still think they're simply "a division of FMIC"?
 
#51
MarkoYYZ said:
I guess you're taking the most literal interpretation of "division".

It seems like the most simple way - though not a very clear way - to say that Fender Japan is the Japanese affiliate company of FMIC. Companies can have many division in many countries, it doesn't mean that one of them owns all the others. There are an infinite number of ways to do these things.

For example - Pepsi Canada is not owned by Pepsico USA (or whatever the official name is). It's a separate company that has negotiated a license to produce Pepsi products for the Canadian market. If the factory at Pepsi Canada was able to supply extra production capacity to Pepsico USA, or have a setup that allowed for special cans or flavors or something, then they could also be a supplier to the "parent" company at the same time. They may or may not make other variants of Pepsi not available in the US, but that comes down to what the agreement allows.

I have read Fender's SEC documents with respect to their planned IPO. At no point in any of the financials or operating costs is Fender Japan mentioned, aside from the % of FMIC that is owned by the 2 Japanese partners. It's basically an external entity that is both A) one of their OEM suppliers and B) their Japanese distributor as well as C) licensee to produce their own unique Fender models.

I tried to explain how and why the rights/licensing agreement may have come to exist in 1985, but that would be a very private document that none of us are ever going to see and it has probably changed in form several times over the past 29 years. We know for sure that at some point the joint venture was terminated and it became the OEM/distribution thing as noted above. It stands to reason that if CBS-Fender owned 38% of Fender Japan, and sold it to Bill Schultz and his investor group in 1985, that the ownership would carry over - but that same investor group received loans and production guarantees from the Japanese partners, so it's likely the money was partly a buyout of the 38% ownership, and partly an investment into what became FMIC (and they still own a sizable chunk of it). Yamano and Kanda Shokai own about 27% combined of FMIC, while at the same time paying rights and distribution fees in the millions to FMIC in order to handle their Japanese distribution. Further still, under a different agreement, FMIC pays Fender Japan to handle marketing in Japan.

Still think they're simply "a division of FMIC"?
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No reason at all to get snarky about it - I would like to know the truth, simple as that. I don't "think" they are simply anything. I don't know, that is why I asked the question.

Funny, I still don't know.

BassHappy
 
#52
I didn't realize I was being snarky - it wasn't my intent.

(The deleted sarcasm wasn't necessary)

I put a lot of work into my posts in this thread and tried to be as informative as I could be with respect to why Fender Japan is not simply a division of FMIC. If that's not good enough for you and you claim to still not know, then you're beyond help.
 
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#53
MarkoYYZ said:
I didn't realize I was being snarky - it wasn't my intent - but way to go on taking snarkiness to the next level in your reply, Mr Truth Seeker :thumbsup:
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Seems to me like a "yes' or "no" question.

Fender Japan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fender Japan is the Japanese division of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation.

IS Fender Japan a division of Fender Musical Instruments Corporation?

Yes or no?

Since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer, maybe we should vote or do a poll on it or something.

:smug::smug::smug::smug::smug::smug:

BassHappy
 
#54
BassHappy said:
No reason at all to get snarky about it - I would like to know the truth, simple as that. I don't "think" they are simply anything. I don't know, that is why I asked the question.

Funny, I still don't know.

BassHappy
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Wow! I don't believe Marko was in any way snarky. It seems to me the initiator of snarkiness was the other party who came across slightly less favorably. Who would that be?
 
#55
Frenchy-Lefty said:
Maybe they changed for the better then but I quikly took a peek and the MIJ Standard JB still shows Basswood body. The '75 RI MIJ has always been made with an Ash Body
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It looks like most of the lower priced (Standard?) models are basswood, but not all of them. Perhaps it's the equivalent there of MIM here. The factories tend to design and build to their available regional wood supplies. Basswood is available around the Pacific Rim, more so than alder.
 
#56
okcrum said:
It looks like most of the lower priced (Standard?) models are basswood, but not all of them. Perhaps it's the equivalent there of MIM here. The factories tend to design and build to their available regional wood supplies. Basswood is available around the Pacific Rim, more so than alder.
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This is part of the problem with the myth of 'fender Japan is awesome'.. SOME of their stuff is awesome, ALOT of it is awesome..

But they also make some very very base model instruments with cheap hardware, cheap timber and crappy electrics.. I see these for sale on eBay as 'awesome MIJ fender' for a lot more than they should be, some of those base models are barely Squier territory.

The top end stuff is good, but it really pays to do some research before buying MIJ stuff.

Having said that, a lot of the GOOD fender Japan stuff is priced as high as US made fenders
 
#57
mr.mow said:
This is part of the problem with the myth of 'fender Japan is awesome'.. SOME of their stuff is awesome, ALOT of it is awesome..

But they also make some very very base model instruments with cheap hardware, cheap timber and crappy electrics.. I see these for sale on eBay as 'awesome MIJ fender' for a lot more than they should be, some of those base models are barely Squier territory.

The top end stuff is good, but it really pays to do some research before buying MIJ stuff.

Having said that, a lot of the GOOD fender Japan stuff is priced as high as US made fenders
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The original (and I think the modern Duff) Jazz Specials were basswood bodies, and were priced below MIAs of the time. Mine played and sounded quite decently, and I didn't find it hard to eq in the tone. I would rate it as higher quality than MIM, to be honest, but it was not a standard model, to be fair. Still, it's not as durable in the softer wood...

Part of the myth is myth, as you say. Part comes from the deserved reputation the MIJ/CIJs have for being quite well built, regardless of the parts.
 
#58
I think with the Aerodynes, they could use a more typical type of wood and still end up being on the lighter side, considering the sculpting they do to create the sleek (aerodynamic) shape. Perhaps they use basswood because their CNCs are able to work through the archtop sculpting more easily?

...and yes, the better product is closer in price to US product, while the lower tier CIJ stuff is more in line with the upper MIM models.
 
#59
mr.mow said:
Fender Japan and fender are different companies, think of fender Japan as a company licensing the name and respective shapes for use locally.[/QUOTE

A shop I spoke to recently seemed to think the Japanese market was more superficial hence the greater range if colours - fine by me.

My experience is the quality is good as well
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#60
I just couldn't resist positing this. Thought all the semi-hollows were J not P:

DSCN9156.jpg


By the way, it IS for sale.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
 
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