Fender logos on Squier basses...

[Major Softie]

Call me a cynic if you want, I have a hard time believing that all the venom directed at some folks who put on fake decals is just based on concern for some other people hypothetically getting ripped off in some possible future scenario. This reaction and accompanying explanation doesn't pass the smell test to me.

OK I'll bite. What would you suggest is the motivation of these folks (objectors)?

How about what they've said it is. We have here a discussion where people have registered their opinion and the reason for it. Agreeing or disagreeing is acceptable. Making reasoned arguments in opposition to other arguments is reasonable. Suggesting that none of the people who object to the logos have been honest about their reasons is an ugly personal attack with absolutely zero evidence that appears to be nothing more than a petty attempt to discredit them personally while not having the ability to actually discrediting their arguments.

Since you haven't actually mounted a credible argument of your own and have only attacked made up motives, how about we all just start making up motivations for your posts? I'll start:

Motivation number 1 - you are a troll that simply makes thoroughly inappropriate accusations with no other motivation than having no other way to make yourself feel important.

The rest of you, feel free to suggest made up motivations of your own.

 

[hsech]

I've seen decals on Ebay a while back that used a script and color similar to Fender only it said "Faker"

 

[antonspon]

So you would rather buy new?

So, if it puts people off buying used Fenders, and if they want a Fender, they will buy new?

So it hurts Fender by actually getting people to prefer buying new, from Fender?

Deliberately misunderstanding doesn't change what I meant. Perception of the brand gets gets devalued. And no, it doesn't mean I'll rush out and buy a new Fender. It just means I have to waste extra time and energy checking whether an item is genuine, not just worrying about whether it's a good bass or not. Or just buy another brand that isn't as widely faked.

 

[MarkoYYZ]

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, that is just not true. The proposed new decals don't solve the issue.

It's always possible when someone can be easily duped - I concede that - but the purpose of these alternates wasn't to completely "solve the issue". That's not a reasonable expectation because it will always happen to some extent.

I would think mitigating it is still something worth discussing, though. That's what this is about. If you can get away from your "no, no, always no" stance for 30 seconds, can you at least concede that this is preferable to genuine replacements being put on the open market?

 

[Itzayana]

Worrying about the logo decal on an instrument is a monumental waste of time.
Isn't it better to worry about what you sound like rather than what you look like?
Go to your room and practice!

 

[Turock]

Call me a cynic if you want, I have a hard time believing that all the venom directed at some folks who put on fake decals is just based on concern for some other people hypothetically getting ripped off in some possible future scenario. This reaction and accompanying explanation doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Are you really saying that people are being dishonest about others dishonesty? That's a good one.
That's almost as good as the guy claiming that "thinking outside the box" somehow makes the counterfeit less wrong, because hey, they are going to do it anyway.
Or the guy that keeps insisting that no one could get burned because it's not an exact duplicate.

 

[Commreman]

Worrying about the logo decal on an instrument is a monumental waste of time.
Isn't it better to worry about what you sound like rather than what you look like?
Go to your room and practice!

Yep. Quoted for truth.

I play an MIA FSR Jazz, a 64 Precision, and a Squier VM Jag. I have done a bunch of gigs with the Jag, and it's fun to stun the other musos in the audience with it. It's the painter, not the brush!
An excellent guitarist that I work with once said that I was going to have to change the decal on the headstock. I simply asked him "why?" He couldn't give me an answer. I got a good chuckle out of that one.

 

[SIFJiggy]

I really like the OP's OP.

Looks cool, when you look at it - you can still tell it's a Squier - so the deception perception is taken care of.

I get the feeling sometimes that the "Squier" script just doesn't look right - throws me off.

I'm SURE I'm not the first to post this but oh well: http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n278/pedge22/flyBACK/fenderpbass.jpg
(I'm sorry, can't take all 15 pages of this debate today)

It's happened before.

btw - no snobbery here - just think it's a cool idea. Unfortunately, it will never happen because it seems Squier has put plenty of effort into establishing it's brand.

 

[kohntarkosz]

Call me a cynic if you want, I have a hard time believing that all the venom directed at some folks who put on fake decals is just based on concern for some other people hypothetically getting ripped off in some possible future scenario. This reaction and accompanying explanation doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Which translates as "I have a hard time feeling too bad about people getting ripped off by fake merchandise and cannot imagine anybody thinks differently".

 

[MarkoYYZ]

That's almost as good as the guy claiming that "thinking outside the box" somehow makes the counterfeit less wrong, because hey, they are going to do it anyway.

That's not what the 'outside the box' comment was about, and this proves you are seeing only what you want to see.

I asked you some direct yes or no questions in that post that you have avoided answering.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Just what they said it was--the potential for fraud down the road. Why is that so hard to believe?

It isn't actually. I'm merely suggesting that if that really is ones concern, then one should support efforts to stop it. But there is no way to stop the practice of people putting on the decals. People will do this, it cannot be stopped.

Are you really saying that people are being dishonest about others dishonest?

I'm suggesting that they are more interested in taking a moral position and feeling righteous about it, rather than actually wanting to solve the problem in as best a way as possible.

No one here has suggested or believes (as far as I can tell) that there is any way to stop this practice, right?

OK if that is true, and one is genuinely concerned about people getting ripped off...what then? Sure, it's easy to just stake out your moral position and say its wrong, it's a fraud, it's a lie, people will get ripped off. Fair enough, but it is happening and will continue, so what should the next step be?

Just continue to state your position over and over, or come to grips with the reality that, wrong as it may be, it is a practice that is not going away?

So, is there any alternative? The OP suggests that maybe there is, and perhaps it is the least bad option. I'm inclined to agree.

Here is the core of what I am saying: What I question is the notion that someone says they wish to protect people making future purchases (a laudable position) but then is against a possible effort to do just that because the practice is morally wrong and shouldn't happen in the first place...when they know that is an impossible goal that will never occur.

So what is more important? Trying to help (in whatever small way we might be able) to address the problem, or being right?

If that's trolling, so be it.

 

[Turock]

That's not what the 'outside the box' comment was about, and this proves you are seeing only what you want to see.

I asked you some direct yes or no questions in that post that you have avoided answering.

OK, as someone who has been playing Fenders for over 40 years, I would not easily be fooled; however, everyone does not have my experience.
What are your other questions?

 

[MarkoYYZ]

OK, as someone who has been playing Fenders for over 40 years, I would not easily be fooled; however, everyone does not have my experience.
What are your other questions?

I'm re-posting those previously asked. These are simple yes or no questions.


1) If you were looking at a used bass in a pawn shop or on craigslist that said "Fender Vintage Modified" you would have a better chance to recognize it for being a Squier, wouldn't you?

2) If people insist on upgrading their Squiers with Fender decals, isn't it preferable that the label be something other than a factory reproduction, making it more identifiable as a replaced decal?

Added new ones, to help clarify the discussion points:

3) If someone is going to try to pull a scam and re-label their instrument in order to deceive someone, would they use this sort of decal, or would they go for a more convincing factory reproduction?

4) Do you think the practice of using replacement labels is ever going to stop?


It would be nice for anyone else who has taken a hard stance against re-labeling to also answer these questions. Maybe I should have made a poll...

 

[GregC]

It's always possible when someone can be easily duped - I concede that - but the purpose of these alternates wasn't to completely "solve the issue". That's not a reasonable expectation because it will always happen to some extent.

I would think mitigating it is still something worth discussing, though. That's what this is about. If you can get away from your "no, no, always no" stance for 30 seconds, can you at least concede that this is preferable to genuine replacements being put on the open market?

I understand that you weren't looking to completely eliminate the potential for fraud. Bear in mind that I was responding to a post that claimed your idea would accomplish that.

Would it mitigate the problem to a degree? Probably. How much? Hard to say, of course, but most scammers do seem to prey on newbies (naturally). A lot of more experienced buyers would likely spot other issues with many/most fakes that would give them away.

 

[GregC]

I don’t think there are gonna be Squier Affinities passing for MIAs.

A used Squier Affinity might sell for $150/200, better Squiers $200/300, used MIMs maybe $300/450. Sorry, but nobody’s gonna lose their homes over this.

And Squiers being sold as Fenders by people who changed their headstock logos for personal reasons isn’t some huge epidemic. If this is the big reason for not liking the practice, it’s just not something to lose sleep about.

Sure there might be some deliberate scammers doing some serious work to make a good fake, but that’s not what the thread was about.

See post 200 for an example.

But hey, if the standard for talking about something is whether someone's going to lose their house, we might as well shut the whole forum down.

I'm not losing any sleep over this. Folks are simply attempting to reduce the number of basses in circulation that could be used by scammers. Makes sense to me.

By the way, if losing a few hundred bucks is no big deal to you, feel free to send me some via Paypal.

 

[DanBass81]

1) If you were looking at a used bass in a pawn shop or on craigslist that said "Fender Vintage Modified" you would have a better chance to recognize it for being a Squier, wouldn't you?

NO. How would I know it was a Squier if it said 'Fender Vintage Modified' on it? I would know it was a Squier if it said 'Squier' on it. Obviously in reality I'd know it wasn't a genuine Fender from experience but others might not.

2) If people insist on upgrading their Squiers with Fender decals, isn't it preferable that the label be something other than a factory reproduction, making it more identifiable as a replaced decal?

Replacing the decal is not an upgrade, and again, if it doesn't say Squier on it some might not know what it is.

3) If someone is going to try to pull a scam and re-label their instrument in order to deceive someone, would they use this sort of decal, or would they go for a more convincing factory reproduction?

They would go for the best looking forgery they could find

4) Do you think the practice of using replacement labels is ever going to stop?

No

 

[MarkoYYZ]

...if it doesn't say Squier on it some might not know what it is.

...

They would go for the best looking forgery they could find

So your main concern is that it A) needs to say Squier on it and B) it should not be a forgery (I have argued against forgeries)


How about this:

 

[Stealth Fighter]

1) If you were looking at a used bass in a pawn shop or on craigslist that said "Fender Vintage Modified" you would have a better chance to recognize it for being a Squier, wouldn't you?

NO. How would I know it was a Squier if it said 'Fender Vintage Modified' on it? I would know it was a Squier if it said 'Squier' on it. Obviously in reality I'd know it wasn't a genuine Fender from experience but others might not.

2) If people insist on upgrading their Squiers with Fender decals, isn't it preferable that the label be something other than a factory reproduction, making it more identifiable as a replaced decal?

Replacing the decal is not an upgrade, and again, if it doesn't say Squier on it some might not know what it is.

3) If someone is going to try to pull a scam and re-label their instrument in order to deceive someone, would they use this sort of decal, or would they go for a more convincing factory reproduction?

They would go for the best looking forgery they could find

4) Do you think the practice of using replacement labels is ever going to stop?

No

Ok, the first two are easily fixed by adding Squier in front of Vintage Modified (ex: Fender, Squier Vintage Modified. Since you seem to agree with the OP on the last two questions, it appears that this addition would put you and the OP on the same page. Am I missing something? It seems that the only difference would be Fender, Squier Vintage Modified Vs. Squier, Vintage Modified by Fender.

Edit: OP beat me to it.

 

[P Town]

I have no data to support this, only conjecture on my part, but I would bet that many unsophisticated buyers have been defrauded by counterfeit Fenders.

 

[peledog]

Pretty much the same issue with the Road Worn series.