Fender Rumble LT25, Studio 40 & Stage 800

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by G-Dog, Jul 30, 2019.


  1. bhendrix

    bhendrix

    May 2, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Thank you sir! Great eye - yes, that's butterscotch blonde on that Player Mustang and I fell in love it at first glance. Maple board, butterscotch blonde body with black guard...Just a look I love. And this one almost plays itself. First short scale I've ever had and really liking it. The Geddy and my P bass sound awesome through the Studio 40 as well!
     
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  2. bhendrix

    bhendrix

    May 2, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    I was able to obtain a "kitchen pass" from the "to do list" today due to the arrival of the Studio 40 late yesterday!

    You may have posted before, but what software do you use? I was looking at the Presonus interface - reviews say super easy - of course, the reviewers "may" be rocket scientists! :laugh:
     
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  3. iagtrplyr

    iagtrplyr Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2013
    Clinton, IA
    b, you’re my player of the week! In a very close race between you and G’Dog for his marvelous use of funding to gain some toys to play with, your positive attitude and interest in getting into this modeling amp is infectious.

    And I’m gonna say this only one more time do you don’t think I’m stalking: I absolutely love and must have that Mustang bass! If that thing comes into my house over the next month or two, my Jazzer should be very nervous.

    The problem is, and I’m seriously kicking this around, having to alter it for my leftiness. I’d have to switch the nut around, change the strap lock from one horn to the other, and the most challenging ordeal, somehow find s comfy place for my left arm over/on the v and t controls. That’s my biggest concern.

    But I’m currently in lust with that bass of yours and even asked my #2 to hang outside for long periods of time just to get that shade your bass has! Okay, now I need a shower...
     
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  4. iagtrplyr

    iagtrplyr Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2013
    Clinton, IA
    Yes, I read that too, but it’s making me look like an idiot right now. I’m using their most basic recording/mixing software of the three they offer. When I bought my Presonus Audiobox 96 USB, my buddy I deal with in town said I could move up for either free or small cost to their top software if I wanted to. Heck, there’s so many doodle-dads and floppy-doos on the base software I’d have to go to Droopy_TX University for two years to get my engineering degree!

    Speaking of the Droopster, this really nice guy has sent me tips and how-tos in order for me to walk and chew gum at the same time, and if you like, after I go through his steps to success I’ll send them to you. With any luck, I’ll have something decent to listen to with my bass over the music. It’s been like chasing the }#%^* holy grail, ya know?

    On a side note, b, hows that Mustang’s neck? Smooth as the proverbial baby’s bottom? How are the frets? Do you need a file for the sprouts, if any?

    I’m asking for a friend...
     
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  5. bhendrix

    bhendrix

    May 2, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Looks like someone's got "Mustang Fever"! I had it and the only cure was of course was to obtain said Mustang. The neck will remind you of your Jazz - same 1.5 nut - only shorter. Once you're used to SS, you'll love it - but going back to your long scales is like riding a bike. So I've gotten used to the transition and can go back and forth effortlessly.
    The neck is wonderful - typical MIM poly - but very light application in my opinion and makes for fast navigation. This was a CME exclusive and they did a wonderful setup is it was good to go out of the box. No problems with frets needing a file down or any signs of sprout. They still have a couple left if you care to peruse...
    Fender Offset Series Mustang Bass PJ Butterscotch Blonde w/3-Ply Black Pickguard (CME Exclusive)

    A couple better pics of mine - for your viewing pleasure! :smug:

    IMG_20200406_133640628.jpg IMG_20200406_114851678.jpg IMG_20200406_133910488.jpg

    EDIT: my bad - you're already used to SS :facepalm:
     
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  6. iagtrplyr

    iagtrplyr Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2013
    Clinton, IA
    You are correct, sir, I am now SS. Played my Jazz yesterday and felt like I do when I pick up a righty. It’s like, what I do with this thing? Then I grab my violin bass and it’s, let’s get to work.

    I’m a little shy at this moment to make the Mustang my latest conquest, but it’s in my list before summer is out unless I can find me a lefty short scale that I like. I still worry about my left hand fighting with the two knobs.

    I was do happy to hear your thumbs up on the neck. I know just what you mean too. That’s my J’s Neck to a T. I just wish it was under 31” and a pound or two lighter.

    All I know is if Fender doesn’t change their mind about making lefty basses or Gone Plaid can’t find me a left handed Gibson, then I’m buying this. You have been warned:

    155E0CDA-67F1-4DA5-9AEA-7EA42F73160D.jpeg
     
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  7. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    Question for those have had both the Helix and Stage. How comparable are they from a modelling quality point of view?

    Also I've been a GK MB user in the past because compared to the Fender Rumble and Ampeg BA offerings they were the quietest. Is the Stage as noisy as the Rumble range?
     
  8. Diver

    Diver

    Feb 14, 2020
    I'd be interested to know about the sound quality differences too.

    In terms of noise, my Stage 800 is hella more silent than my BA108. Not a hiss from the speaker, the only noticeable noise, if you get close to the speaker, is generated by the fan spinning, which is really low.
    FYI my BA108 Ampeg combo is the 1st gen. Not sure if the V2 is as noisy, but that thing is very noisy.
     
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  9. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    @Solude,
    Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to run some tests and gather some data before responding. I have both units. I like and use the both, many times in the same way. I find that both are very capable modelers, and both have their strengths.

    Surprisingly, there is not a lot of overlap in the amp models they offer. Here’s a handy table of the amp models on each:
    2hCanKL.png

    Common and Similar Models
    There are actually only two amp models that are identical between the two modelers: the Ampeg B-15NF and the Gallien-Krueger 800RB. Although both units have a classic SVT amp model, source models are not identical. The Fender model appears to be based on the Ampeg SVT-CL amp, whereas the Helix models the Ampeg SVT-VR amp. Although the controls differ on these amps, there is enough similarity between the models to yield a significant overlap in the tones for comparison. However, the Ampeg SVT-VR is undoubtedly the more capable of the two models. The R800’s Sunn 300T model and the Stomp’s Sunn Coliseum 300 are not at all the same models; however, they are very similar. So I found that their tones and sonic ranges overlap enough for these amps also to be used for qualitative analysis.

    Testing Method
    My testing method was pretty straightforward. I simultaneously plugged my Fender Precision into both a Fender Rumble Stage 800 and a Line 6 HX Stomp. Both of these were fed via USB into separate tracks in my DAW. I used both presets created from scratch, and factory templates as provided on each device, matching parameters as reasonable. I took turns playing through each device, and fiddled with the settings a bit. I am nothing if not a scientific methodologist.

    Findings
    • On the whole, both modelers performed very well. It was fairly easy to get a good common matching tone on both units.
    • Both have a good selection of amps, cabinets, and effects. The Rumble Stage 800 has more amp models; nearly twice that of the HX Stomp; but the quality, clarity, and flexibility of the Stomp models is stellar.
    • If I had give an edge to one of the units, I would give it to the HX Stomp. I don’t think that the amp modeling itself is significantly different; but, what is different on the HX Stomp is the inclusion of microphone selection on the cabinet model. Being able to change microphone provides much greater flexibility in tailoring the tone (e.g. controlling “boominess”, mid-range definition, treble highlights without over doing it, etc.).
    Noise
    • You raised a question on noisiness: The actual HX Stomp, of course, doesn’t make any noise itself. I consider the Rumble 800 to be a pretty quiet unit. It does have a fan, but I would consider the fan noise very low.
    • With regarding to signal noise, using standard amps with standard settings, neither device creates a significant amount of signal noise. However, as with any device, real or modeled, if you add a lot of gain to any devices in the signal path, it can get noisy. Particularly a unit like a Big Muff Pi or similar overdrive. If the gain is cranked, you’re going to hear it.
    • Overall, though, without using crazy effects or tremendously high gain, both units are impressively quiet. The only somewhat noisy amp is the SWR Redhead. I think that’s a result of the fact that it is such a pristine amp; it’s going to amplify everything.
    Recommendations
    • Which unit is “better” is really a matter of purpose:
    • I think the HX Stomp is a better modeler. That is what it does; but, what it doesn’t do is amplify.
    • If you are looking for a device to record with, the HX Stomp is going to offer more flexibility for tweaking your tone. It can create dual-amp paths. It can re-amp a dry signal through other amp models. It is great in the studio and very portable.
    • The Rumble Stage 800 is an excellent amplifier, and a very capable modeler. If you are looking for a modeling amp that you can use to play live, and not be reliant on the P.A. for your sound, it is excellent in this capacity. The Studio 40 offers the same tones at a lower volumes for small venues, but it can also be fed through other amps to bolster its volumes as many Rumble fans will attest.
    • If you are considering using the HX Stomp on stage, you need to consider how you will amplify and monitor it.
    • I have done so successfully, but either the PA will need to able to support the bass, or you will have to run the one of the outputs of the Stomp to an amp or FRFR speaker for stage volume/monitoring.
    • Alternatively, if you are able to run the bass through the PA, and are using IEMs, you’re gold.
    • Another alternative is to consider the amazing power of “AND”.
    • There is a reason I have both. I do all of the scenarios above.
    • I use both the Rumble and the Stomp in the studio (via USB, to heck with cab mic’ing) depending on which can better create the sound I want.
    • For live play, I generally run the Stomp as an effects unit into the front of my Rumble. In that situation, the Rumble is the modeling unit, and provides room volume and monitoring. The Stomp is relegated to effects and pitch shifting duties.
    • In “fly” situations, with a full PA, it’s the Stomp alone with IEMs.
    • Regarding noise, as I said, neither unit is noisy through normal use:
    • So, avoid overly high-gain effects / amps.
    • Or, make sure the song is noisy enough to bury the noise. ;-)


    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  10. iagtrplyr

    iagtrplyr Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2013
    Clinton, IA
    Good summation, Droopy. Just curious, do you run the Stomp through the 800’s effects loop or between bass and amp input?

    Also, created a two-track piece today with midi on track 1 and my bass on track 2. Tomorrow I’ll start the mixing process so I can create something to send to my enemies and deaf friends. A slow but steady process indeed. :)

    BTW, I miked my rig to create the video I needed for my song I sent in. I once again, for kicks, tried running the amp’s DI to the Presonus’ first input but nothing came through. My next attempt will be through my PBJ Double Four’s line out into the Presonus to see if that’ll work.
     
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  11. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    Thanks, iag.

    Glad to hear you're making some headway, though. Check your "USB Gain" level. I leave mine set to '+6 dB'.

    I have the Stomp between the bass and the amp. I am using primarily as a pitch transposition effect, like a DigiTech Drop. We play a few songs in drop D, and a few that we transpose down a half step. I don't play a 5-er, and I don't want to have to detune. The Stomp works perfectly for this. I also have an Obsidian 7000 (Dark Glass) overdrive, a Chorus, and a filter effect available on the transposition preset that I can engage as desired.
     
  12. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    First, Droopy_TX that is some epic effort thank you.

    By noise I meant, nothing loaded, nothing plugged in, eq at 12 o'clock, master/gain dimed. Self noise test so to speak. The Ampeg is loud, Fender was ok, GK was dead quiet. Again the normal Rumble, not Stage. And I should mention I already have Helix Native.

    So guess the real question is, is the modeling on the Stage good enough to bypass Helix Native or should/could I get a normal amp fed by Helix Native or given this is for home use am I fine using Helix Native and studio monitors as I am at the moment? I don't play live so only home situations needs to be considered.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  13. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    No problem. I enjoy going on forever like that. Just ask my wife. (No. Don't.)
    In that configuration, it is pretty danged quiet. Even with the master volume turned up to, say, 80+% does not seem to create any significant signal noise. And, again the environmental noise is such that, even with mine sitting about 3 feet from me in my home studio, I sometimes forget to turn it off. It doesn't sound "live" like my QSC K12.2 speakers. They're not noisy, but when you walk in front of them you know if they're on.

    I have used my BL's Rumble 200 live and in the practice room. I don't recall it being noisy; but, his Ampeg SVT-450H sure can get noisy. It sounds good with its 4x12 cab, though.
    If you have Native, you know how good the Helix modeling is. I would say that the Rumble Stage modeling is nearly as good, but not as flexible/configurable. However, to the question of whether it is good enough in place of the Helix, for live use, it is a definite, yes. That's is why I generally just use the Stage for modeling, and the Stomp for effects.

    In the home studio, as I alluded in my first post, the Helix (including Native) is better because: 1) the models are somewhat better being that modeling is the primary purpose around which it was developed, and 2) the ability to interchange mics on the cab models makes a tremendous difference toward getting the tone you're looking for. This is the reason many Helix users complain that the cab blocks don't offer the ability to reposition the mic laterally on the speaker cone like IRs do. Oh, and 3) IRs. IRs are a rabbit hole down which I do not generally venture; but, they are an option the Stage does not offer.

    I would note, I also have Helix Native (since Line 6 ran a discount for Helix owners). The only sonic difference between the plugin and the Stomp is the fact that Helix/HX models (not the POD Go) have some sort of responsive impedance thingy in the instrument input. So, the units react to accommodate the signal impedance in a way that Native does not, since your input will be coming via an audio interface. That only means you may have fiddle with the input levels in the plugin.

    Of course, the huge benefit of Native is that it can run as many DSP blocks as your computer/DAW can handle, and it has the full pathing capabilities of the Helix Floor. So, in that respect, in the home studio, the Stomp really would not give you anything you don't already have. Indeed, with only 6 DSP blocks (eventually 8), it would be more restricting. I am not sure why, but with the Stomp, I generally don't use Native except to practice or try out patches. It is probably because, even at home, I have the Stomp plugged in-line into the Stage as I do live, and the USBs from both running into my computer. So, my guitar is already plugged into them. And my presets don't usually require more than 6 DSP blocks. But, I think the Native plugin performs fantastically, and is well worth even the full price.

    So, my bottom line recommendation for you:
    If, as now, you only need something for home use, I would suggest you stick with Helix Native. You own it, and it does more than the Stomp.
    If you want to take those tones on the road without the hassle of the computer/DAW, consider the HX Stomp. But, consider how you will amplify/monitor the device.
    If you need a modeling amp for live play, strongly consider the Rumble Stage. As for me, it takes the place of the Stomp on the road, and sometimes in the studio, too.

    Hope this helps.
     
  14. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    Almost there.

    The Stomp and playing outside of the home... not an option. I am not a good player but I do need a good tone to enjoy it. As an aside I have tried for years to get a guitar tone I can enjoy for the music I listen to with no avail.

    So I guess the question is... For home use only:
    1. Helix to Monitors
    2. Helix to 12/15/2x10 Bass Combo
    3. Fender Rumble Stage

    Go!
     
  15. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    So, in line with my earlier recommendations, I would suggest: 1. Helix (Native) to Monitors

    In my case, at home, 90% of the time, I use headphones (Sennheiser HD-280 PRO) attached to my audio interface. The other 10% is when I am either tired of having cans on my head, or I want to shake the rafters. Moving air is fun sometimes; but, headphones are an immersive experience. And, I mentioned my wife, right? (R-E-S-P-E-C-T vs. D-I-V-O-R-C-E).

    I know a lot of people run their backing tracks / practice cover music through their amp (like with the Rumble via Bluetooth) or through an effects return (like with the Helix). I find that to be a hassle to setup, and it doesn't allow me to easily repeat or loop sections of music for practice. Instead, I use a template project in my DAW that has an audio track for loading backing tracks/practice cover music, and several instrument tracks to accommodate the various ways I connect (i.e. Rumble USB out; Helix USB out; audio interface input for Native). I just import the audio file I am playing with into the audio track. This lets me jump around or loop easily with the DAW. When I move to the next song, I just delete the audio region and load the next song. Just my way of working.

    Regarding: 2. Helix to 12/15/2x10 Bass Combo
    I'm not clear whether you mean Stomp or Native. I am assuming Stomp. This will work; but, you may have issues with cab sims. In most cases, when piping the Helix into an amp, you want to bypass the cab sims. When doing this in a live stage environment with a PA, you'd likely split the Helix signal path into Path B before your cab sim within a preset, and send the signal without the cabinet to the board. Not doing this can be problematic with modeling amps, because you basically have an amp/cab modeler going into an amp with an amp/cab model going to a physical cab. So, you basically just need to manage your cab modeling; but, again, headphones take the coloring and limitations of the physical amp speaker out of the equation. And, did I mention it's immersive and respectful? ;-)

    Regarding: 3. Fender Rumble Stage
    Of course, this option will work wonderfully; but, honestly, I have to ask whether it is overkill. The Studio 40 does everything the Stage 800 does from a modeling standpoint. It just has less power, and a single 10" speaker; but, it costs less, too. As a modeling amp for home use, it seems ideal. Indeed, I have a Fender Bronco 40 modeling amp from the Fuse days. I've used it both for practice and for recording on numerous songs. It is a wonderful little home/practice amp that I still use from time to time.


    So, in the final tally...
    • I'd go with Option #1 because it is a perfectly functional solution at no additional cost to you.
    • My second choice would be Option #3 with the sub-option of replacing the Stage 800 with the Studio 40 for proper scaling and cost reduction purposes.
    • With Option #2, if your intent is to run a Stomp into an amp, it is certainly the most expensive option. It means buying a Stomp and also an amp. I'd lean toward doing that in phases. You're going to need an amp; so, why not a Rumble Stage or Studio: then you also have Option #3. If you really need the Stomp, too, then get it when you can/want to; but, you're fully functional from go.
    Well, at least those are my thoughts on the matter.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  16. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    Option 2 would be Helix Native into the bass combo to be clear. I run the bass into the RME, load up Native and send back out via a TRS configured for mono and level appropriate for amp input.

    Basically is the speaker in the combo of higher quality, at playing bass, than Dynaudio 7" monitors. When I ran the experiment for guitar with the Fender Bassbreaker 30R the amp provided no benefit other than being able to play WAY too loud for home use :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  17. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    Yeah, if you want to play loud, a real bass speaker is always going to be better.

    I use Adam Audio monitors. They're great near-field monitors, but I don't crank the bass too loud in them.
    Another reason I generally use my headphones. I can impart significant hearing loss at relatively low volumes. ;)
     
  18. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    I imagine the speaker in the Studio 40 is same junk speaker in the Rumble 40? Granted even after a speaker swap it is cheaper by a lot unless you also want the footswitch.
     
  19. Droopy_TX

    Droopy_TX

    Jul 17, 2016
    Houston
    I don't have a Studio 40; but, many in this forum do, and are quite happy with its performance, which I would think includes the speaker performance. I have the Studio 40's predecessor, the Bronco 40. I would not classify the speaker as junk. It is sized and spec'd for the intended purpose of the amp, and performs and sounds just fine. I would expect that the newer speaker model in the Studio 40 exceeds this performance.

    I would not attempt to use either at rock band volumes. If you want to go that loud, you will likely need more power than the Studio 40 can provide. As mentioned before, many use the Studio 40 as an inexpensive modeler, then pipe it through a Rumble 200 or the like to achieve performance volumes.

    For the ultimate sonic overload, try the Stage 800 with the 2x10" extension cab, to "witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station". It's truly beautiful to behold.
     
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  20. Solude

    Solude

    Sep 16, 2017
    I should go get my metre but would guess I play at about 90dB. Just below house rattling but above the acoustic sound of the bass. My previous GK could get to Lego bins pretending to be popcorn levels :D Not usable but fun!
     
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