Fender Rumble V3 100 speaker up-grade ?

[M-Mittlesteadt]

I agree that adding some bracing and acoustic dampening (lining) to the cab is the better way to go than changing speakers. After all, these speakers were chosen for these enclosures.

Lining prevents the mids from bouncing around in the cab. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with the stock speakers at all. They were chosen and incorporated into the overall design. I wouldn't waste my time or money trying to upgrade the speakers for such a minimal improvement (if any). Bracing and lining is more than enough needed to tame the lo-mids.

 

[blr2]

My Rumble 40 is also a bit lo-mid heavy, which can make it sound somewhat muddy. I cut low mids and boost high mids a bit, and this solves most of the problem. I may try to add some lining in the future.

 

[agedhorse]

I agree that adding some bracing and acoustic dampening (lining) to the cab is the better way to go than changing speakers. After all, these speakers were chosen for these enclosures.

Not necessarily, there’s good reason the designers ended up where they did with those models. Most players preferred them the way they are, adding more damping can make the cabinet sound and feel too dry and lifeless (even though some advocate that more is ALWAYS better, listening tests I have done clearly show this is not true). The same applies to bracing.

The challenge is determining how much is “just right”.

Lining prevents the mids from bouncing around in the cab. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with the stock speakers at all. They were chosen and incorporated into the overall design. I wouldn't waste my time or money trying to upgrade the speakers for such a minimal improvement (if any). Bracing and lining is more than enough needed to tame the lo-mids.

The low mids aren’t really affected by the damping, more the bracing but it’s possible to shift the parasitic resonance frequency to a worse region too.

There are other causes of low mids bumps, specifically as a tradeoff from another performance aspect that’s considered much more important to most players.

 

[M-Mittlesteadt]

My Rumble 40 is also a bit lo-mid heavy, which can make it sound somewhat muddy. I cut low mids and boost high mids a bit, and this solves most of the problem. I may try to add some lining in the future.

Any bass cab without lining is going to have that "boxy" mid problem. Overall design makes a difference as well. Is it a perfect "cube"? Tall and thin, short but deep, etc.? Lining is put in them to deal with some problems in the mid frequencies. Everything is a design trade off of some kind.

 

[M-Mittlesteadt]

Not necessarily, there’s good reason the designers ended up where they did with those models. Most players preferred them the way they are, adding more damping can make the cabinet sound and feel too dry and lifeless (even though some advocate that more is ALWAYS better, listening tests I have done clearly show this is not true). The same applies to bracing.

The challenge is determining how much is “just right”.


The low mids aren’t really affected by the damping, more the bracing but it’s possible to shift the parasitic resonance frequency to a worse region too.

There are other causes of low mids bumps, specifically as a tradeoff from another performance aspect that’s considered much more important to most players.

My reply/solution to cut my lo-mids was more specific to the Rumble 100 tone controls more than anything else. A different cab/amp may need a different frequency adjusted. Just so happens that the lo-mid adjustment works in my Rumble 100 as it only has a choice of lo-mid or hi-mid control.

I'm also lazier and care less about my tone as I get older.

 

[blr2]

At the end of the day, if the result is not to the user's liking it is easily reversible and doesn't cost much.

 

[BassBeginer64]

Hey all I can say from my personal experience with the Beta upgrade was positive, this was some years back, the recommended upgrade was suggested by eminence speaker that the beta or the basslite were good upgrades to the China eminence speaker that was in it.

 

[agedhorse]

Any bass cab without lining is going to have that "boxy" mid problem. Overall design makes a difference as well. Is it a perfect "cube"? Tall and thin, short but deep, etc.? Lining is put in them to deal with some problems in the mid frequencies. Everything is a design trade off of some kind.

There are some excellent cabinets without ANY damping used, adding damping was generally acknowledged to sound less desirable by most. It really depends on a lot of things, including the cone composition and thickness.

Hey all I can say from my personal experience with the Beta upgrade was positive, this was some years back, the recommended upgrade was suggested by eminence speaker that the beta or the basslite were good upgrades to the China eminence speaker that was in it.

My experience was that the Beta sounded quite a bit worse to me. I never tried the BassLite, I would expect it to be better choice than the Beta.

 

[blr2]

As nice as they are, the Rumble amps were made to a budget, not a very high budget at that. Things like bracing and lining add to the cost of the combos and cabs. Keep this in mind.

 

[agedhorse]

As nice as they are, the Rumble amps were made to a budget, not a very high budget at that. Things like bracing and lining add to the cost of the combos and cabs. Keep this in mind.

They can also be used by a skilled designer to improve the design. Adding both of these things can make the speaker sound worse, rather than better. It depends.

I know and worked with the guy who was the principle engineer for the V3 line, he's a good enough engineer that I wouldn't second guess him. It sounds exactly as the development team wanted it to sound. Incidentally, GK has also done the same thing, Bob talked about it a while back when somebody was attempting to tell him how to design bass speakers...

I've also adjusted bracing and damping to get the tone I am looking for, a little of both CAN go a long way and it's absolutely possible to overdo both.

Between the 3 of us in the above examples, we probably have 120+ successful years of engineering experience in bass amplifier and speaker design. It's not a coincidence that we all came to similar conclusions. Perhaps you are more experienced that we are?

 

[jkcz]

Thanks for all the input, looks like it's smarter to just leave it as is. Just looked so simple and straightforward from previous comments in the discussion, with a few people mentioning how much the sound improved...
Still, if anyone reading this has changed their speaker or has a Pulse 12 or Basslite S2012 and can tell me if these would give me decent output and tone also for acoustic/electric guitars it would be really appreciated.

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks for all the input, looks like it's smarter to just leave it as is. Just looked so simple and straightforward from previous comments in the discussion, with a few people mentioning how much the sound improved...
Still, if anyone reading this has changed their speaker or has a Pulse 12 or Basslite S2012 and can tell me if these would give me decent output and tone also for acoustic/electric guitars it would be really appreciated.

I would leave it alone for that application too, but the Vasslite would probably sound better than the Pulse.

The reason these “upgrades” SOUND easy and like a good idea is that they appear to be logical on the surface and they are easy to do BUT, if they were so logical, cheap and easy the original manufacturer would have already done it.

As manufacturers, we have resources far beyond even an experienced hobbiest. We have explored things that most wouldn’t have even considered possible.

 

[jkcz]

I would leave it alone for that application too, but the Vasslite would probably sound better than the Pulse.

The reason these “upgrades” SOUND easy and like a good idea is that they appear to be logical on the surface and they are easy to do BUT, if they were so logical, cheap and easy the original manufacturer would have already done it.

As manufacturers, we have resources far beyond even an experienced hobbiest. We have explored things that most wouldn’t have even considered possible.

Thanks, I'm reading Eminence speakers are brighter in general, so maybe more universal.
I'd assume the stock speaker is much cheaper than any of the options discussed, spec-wise (someone posted the original speaker specs from Eminence earlier in the thread) it seemed much weaker all around, Xmax 0.38mm, Pmax 75W, SPL 92.6 etc...
But then again I have no idea, you guys are the pros and that's why I appreciate your input.

 

[blr2]

The reason these “upgrades” SOUND easy and like a good idea is that they appear to be logical on the surface and they are easy to do BUT, if they were so logical, cheap and easy the original manufacturer would have already done it.

The key word here is "cheap". These speakers aren't cheap, even if purchased in bulk by a manufacturer like Fender. The stock speakers are built not only to a certain spec, but also at a price point. You don't need to be electronics engineer to see that these amps were built to a price and corners had to be cut. At the end they are what they are, just inexpensive, rather nice sounding, lightweight combos. No one would expect to find $100 speakers inside.

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks, I'm reading Eminence speakers are brighter in general, so maybe more universal.
I'd assume the stock speaker is much cheaper than any of the options discussed, spec-wise (someone posted the original speaker specs from Eminence earlier in the thread) it seemed much weaker all around, Xmax 0.38mm, Pmax 75W, SPL 92.6 etc...
But then again I have no idea, you guys are the pros and that's why I appreciate your input.

Those specs are not correct for the V3 combo. Just more bad information.

The key word here is "cheap". These speakers aren't cheap, even if purchased in bulk by a manufacturer like Fender. The stock speakers are built not only to a certain spec, but also at a price point. You don't need to be electronics engineer to see that these amps were built to a price and corners had to be cut. At the end they are what they are, just inexpensive, rather nice sounding, lightweight combos. No one would expect to find $100 speakers inside.

Every speaker is built to a price point, and most reputable manufacturers design the very best product they can to the price the customer is willing to pay. With the economies of scale at Fender, you are already getting the $100+ speaker in the combo because they buy speakers by the tens of thousands that are easily the equivalent of a “$100+ retail speaker”

MY experience (remember that I worked under the Fender corporate banner during this time frame) is that this is a very hard speaker to beat, a lot of work went into optimizing the design, the weight and performance, specifically in that size enclosure.

A speaker and enclosure designed together is almost always better performing than even the “greatest speaker in the world” stuck in the wrong enclosure. I could certainly design (or maybe choose) a driver with higher performance, but it wouldn’t be easy to retain the classic tone that the design team targeted.

I’m not sure why you are struggling so much to understand this. I know the design team, I know exactly how much effort it took to achieve this level of performance for this product.

Also, putting a $150 (retail) speaker into a $350 combo that goes for ~$150 used is marginally absurd. If you want a real upgrade, a Rumble 200 is a MUCH better choice all around.

But then again, what do I know???

 

[blr2]

A speaker and enclosure designed together is almost always better performing than even the “greatest speaker in the world” stuck in the wrong enclosure. I could certainly design (or maybe choose) a driver with higher performance, but it wouldn’t be easy to retain the classic tone that the design team targeted.

Agreed. That's why I also recommended to leave the stock speaker (see my posts above).

I’m not sure why you are struggling so much to understand this. I know the design team, I know exactly how much effort it took to achieve this level of performance for this product.

No struggle at all. I do not underestimate the effort designers put to meet their goals in terms of sound, weight and price. Cannot complain about my Rumble 40 V3 for the 250 Euro I paid for it. Are there better small combos out there? Sure, but not at the same price.

 

[ValerieK]

Tl;dr I don't know yet, but I like to ramble.

I'm just a dumb guitarist, but I started playing bass this year and am now playing it out with 2 bands. Everything is direct with IEM's so I didn't even own a bass amp for 6 months... Recently starting to turn down playing opportunities, I shopped around and bought a cheap used Rumble 100 last week... and today ordered a cheap used 4 ohm Celestion BN12-300S for it.

If you don't see an update here on it in a week or two, then the naysayers were right and I died of embarrassment from trying to get the most out of a 21 lb, $300 combo. For now I'm hopeful though.

If money/weight were no object, I would have gone with an Eminence KL3012CX (and tweeter and crossover) as the start of a modular rig, adding jacks to separate the amp and the speaker. Then optionally use a bigger amp and/or second cabinet on top. You'd have a practice/backup amp built right into your cabinet... Sounds neat to me. Look through the big Kappalite Coaxials thread on here - near the end are designs for a 1x12 and the dimensions are very close to the Rumble 100. I just like the idea of the coaxials, particularly for acoustic guitar, and nobody seems to offer them in an already built cabinet anyway.

Another possibly interesting looking cheap speaker (but heavy) is the Celestion K12H-200TC, with a second cone for extended high end response. That might be cool for piezo or synth tones.

I have an empty guitar 1x12 that's sitting here too, closed back and oversized old Peavey 112SX, it will be the backup home for whichever speaker doesn't end up in the Rumble. I also weigh 120 lbs and play a 6 lb 5 string jazz bass in low to medium volume fusion and indie bands. 30 lbs vs 20 is not insignificant to me and I don't need arena rock volumes.

 

[agedhorse]

By the time you get done upgrading the Rumble 100, you could have bought a MUCH nicer Rumble 200 or 500 combo used.

 

[John D Harris]

Tl;dr I don't know yet, but I like to ramble.

I'm just a dumb guitarist, but I started playing bass this year and am now playing it out with 2 bands. Everything is direct with IEM's so I didn't even own a bass amp for 6 months... Recently starting to turn down playing opportunities, I shopped around and bought a cheap used Rumble 100 last week... and today ordered a cheap used 4 ohm Celestion BN12-300S for it.

If you don't see an update here on it in a week or two, then the naysayers were right and I died of embarrassment from trying to get the most out of a 21 lb, $300 combo. For now I'm hopeful though.

If money/weight were no object, I would have gone with an Eminence KL3012CX (and tweeter and crossover) as the start of a modular rig, adding jacks to separate the amp and the speaker. Then optionally use a bigger amp and/or second cabinet on top. You'd have a practice/backup amp built right into your cabinet... Sounds neat to me. Look through the big Kappalite Coaxials thread on here - near the end are designs for a 1x12 and the dimensions are very close to the Rumble 100. I just like the idea of the coaxials, particularly for acoustic guitar, and nobody seems to offer them in an already built cabinet anyway.

Another possibly interesting looking cheap speaker (but heavy) is the Celestion K12H-200TC, with a second cone for extended high end response. That might be cool for piezo or synth tones.

I have an empty guitar 1x12 that's sitting here too, closed back and oversized old Peavey 112SX, it will be the backup home for whichever speaker doesn't end up in the Rumble. I also weigh 120 lbs and play a 6 lb 5 string jazz bass in low to medium volume fusion and indie bands. 30 lbs vs 20 is not insignificant to me and I don't need arena rock volumes.

Was the stock 12" in that amp a 4 Ohm driver?

If not, DO NOT use a 4 Ohm replacement!!!

The amplifier sections were only made for the load they come with.

I replaced the stock 4 Ohm (different units have different drivers) in a used R100c with the BN12-300S (4) and it has worked great.
It has a bit smoother upper midrange, is a bit more efficient, and the driver holds up well at higher SPL, where the stock driver was sounding like the low end was loosing its composure (I play a BEADG 5 string bass), plus it is a bit lighter than the stock driver.

The 8 Ohm version of that driver has a little bit different specs, so I have no idea how it would work as a replacement.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I found this thread while looking for an answer to a discrepancies I found on the Rumble 100 spec sheet on the Fender web site. I’m guessing the “Speakers” section of the spec sheet showing the total impedance at 4 ohms is in error?

Electronics​

Wattage; 100 Watts at 8 Ohms​

​

Speakers​

One - 12" Eminence® Special Design

Total Impedance; 4 ohms​

Then, in the multi-product owners manual (for the Rumble 40/100/200/500) also found on the Fender web site; “310W max” Surely that’s a peak power number, but seems high for a 100 watt amp.

“50W Typical” I’m guessing is the average power used by most players or power used at “typical” settings?