Financial troubles at Gibson

[funkymonk13]

Now that i think about it, Gibsons Downfall has to be in part with horrible marketing in the past few years. Theres a new "line" every year and as i mentioned in a previous post prices are extremely inconsistent throughout the years. I think thunderbirds went up in price like $1000 one year to like ~$2600; then they were getting blown up for $1000. Firebirds one year went from around $1600 to $1100, Studios that cost $1500 in 2007 cost like $1000 in 2015...Really weird what they're doing; slash prices on good models that sell well but jack up prices on stuff that doesnt sell. I'd constantly see online 2015 models they havent sold yet that are more expensive than their 2017 models.

View attachment 2693514
This EB is a lover. So is that Koa Kawai. 2 of my lifers.
Sometimes, whoever it is, they just nail it!

Those EBs are pretty cool; Great price, Cool original NEW shape, super light, resonant, babicz bridge, coil tap is nice and it came with a nice case. Only thing i dont love is the pickups; mine had a weird reverb/chorusy effect on the upper frets. Honestly that thing with a good passive single coil would be epic. Had one just like yours but I actually sold it today!

The SG fadeds were amazing too. They were like $700 bucks a few years ago. Really light, great necks, solid pickups, nice light cases...just super cozy basses; still regret selling mine.

I own a lefty '13 Gibson Les Paul bass, beautiful and perfectly balanced. It is my primary EB.

Super jelly. When i used to play a bit of guitar hero as a teenager my older brother would always make me play bass, and i'd always pick an LP bass for my character(i think guitar hero had a deal with Gibson but not fender). So when i actually started playing and saw these I wanted one really bad, but just couldnt justify an additional bass. Theres not a ton of good demos so im not sure how it would sound in the mix, and I was also afraid of the weight. But i get the feeling they'd sound really good with some flats.

 

[fhm555]

Hasn't that already been going on for a few years now (read: Chinese fakers).

From the analyst in GN.C's link:

Just what we need, even more variations on Teles, Strats, P and J basses...........................

No doubt, but there is a ton of mileage in legal ownership of the name. If they are legit they can sell a billion twenty dollar gibson guitars to AllMart and people who don't know shinola from YKW will see that git-tar made by the same folks that made ole Bill Monroe's mandolin and now you can get it at AllMart. Next thing you know little skeeter is getting a real Gibson guitar for his 4th birthday, while his daddy pays 35K for an authentic American made 3 pickup Black Beauty Les Paul. Even though the name is now on a joke of a guitar, it keeps the name out there which helps drive the market for authentic old gibsons.

 

[fhm555]

Wow, I had no Idea. I've been happy with Shimano Clarus rods for a long time. My tournament fishing buddies might turn their nose up but I think they're hard to beat for $70.

All the tournament guys I used to know always head three each of whatever the hottest thing was their sponsor was pushing at the time. One to use, one to be on the way to the company for replacement and the third one on the way back from the company as a replacement for the one that would be breaking in a few days.

Fortunately, material engineers have made quantum leaps in the compounds and fabric used in blank manufacture. My brother still fishes a lot and he says the midline stuff is as good as anything he's ever used and you's just about have to close a door on a rod to break the tip these days.

Ain't no fly poop on Shimano either. Anyone capable of producing something like the Stella line is still keeping all their ducks in a row.

 

[40Hz]

Didn't anyone else feel that the "$99 Les Paul" was a desperate cry for help?
Epiphone Announces New Les Paul

Possibly. But it didn't stop me from ordering one anyway.

 

[40Hz]

The retail music industry is hurting as a whole. The kids have their heads plunked in front of their smart phones and aren't interested in learning music. Local bands around here are disappearing and the number of places to play have shrunk, too.

That may be part pf it. But the manufacturers also completely flooded the market with decent guitars and basses over the last 25 years. There's so much good used gear available now at (to my mind) amazing prices, there aren't many who know their instruments that have much incentive to buy new unless it's a custom build or the price is heavily discounted on sale. Of the basses I own, only one out of three was purchased as a new instrument. Everything else is used. Most of it was in mint to excellent condition.

Kinda hard to sell a new instrument in that market.

 

[superdick2112]

I stopped caring about Gibson years ago after I took delivery of my Gibson Custom Shop Alex Lifeson ES-355.
The volute on each & every one of the 200 guitars made were positioned in the wrong place.
The location of the volute bothered be enough that I ended up selling the guitar - a guitar that I had wished & waited decades for.
Specs for the peak of the volute called for it to be placed just behind the nut (the usual place for a volute on a Gibson guitar) , but some dip$h!t reading the plans incorrectly placed the volute between the nut & 1st fret, and every one of the production models has this ridiculous & embarrassing flaw.
This error was never corrected, and when owners raised a stink & logged dozens of complaints on the Gibson forums, the complaint threads were locked & the company refused to even acknowledge the issue, stating only that "Alex has approved the model".
I'm sure that "approval" came with very little choice involved, and most likely some extra cash and/or freebies to Alex to compensate for their eff-up. Gibson should have done the right thing by correcting the flawed necks (or better yet scrapping them & building new ones when they discovered the issue), but they didn't.
What arrogant disrespect, not only for the 200 customers, but for Mr. Lifeson himself.

Here is a pic of the template used for all of the Lifeson ES-355 production necks.

 

[40Hz]

Gibson is in trouble in part because the CEO is a bit nuts.

This.

 

[blazebarlow]

Gibson? They haven't made any basses since 2015.

Shavo Odajian was recently seen playing Warwick streamers after playing nothing but thunderbirds since 2001.

The Thunderbird club is gassing for the new epiphone vintage pro that is coming out, because there are no Gibsons.

True, guitar players wanting les pauls outnumber bass players by a large factor, but not even an $800-1k offering like the SG bass? Not even one bass?

Nobody seems happy about this Henry J guy. Perhaps FMIC is paying him under the table to bankrupt Gibson so they can become part of the Fender family.. what about the EB bass guitar...didnt it come out a couple of years ago or so...even has a nice babicz bridge on it..

 

[blazebarlow]

the Gibson EB bass came out 2 or 3 years ago...has a babicz bridge..dual pickups..nice pickups..nice body and headstock...sells for around 900..Gibson still makes the best instruments...and everyone I know that has one or wants one has no trouble paying for them..

 

[blazebarlow]

I am playing a 1981 Gibson Victory Artist bass.....it doesnt get any better...its the best of the best..

 

[Badwater]

That is the pattern that I've seen with Gibson since the global economy of the late 1990's. Gibson makes some very fine crafted guitars, and always has. But their standard $3000 to $4000+ range instruments are not what keeps Gibson afloat. It's their import sister Epiphone.

Consider the capitalization of a USA company like Gibson. There are massive amounts of people that profit off the company. Government safety and health agencies, insurance companies (medical, industrial, and financial), legal entities, ad and marketing agencies and their agents, the retail market stores online and in house, construction or industry entities, labor unions and their affiliates and agents, the financial banking industry, and the investment market industry, etc... For every $4000 ES335 sold, everyone takes a piece of the pie. And, for each of the capitalist I listed above, there are similar entities taking a piece from them. It's like a pyramid scheme, upside down.

So, as money gets tighter, and the capitalizing parasitic elements multiply, cuts need to be made. And Gibson did the right thing by cutting administrative positions over the ones that actually make the instruments. As technology makes it easier to manage finance, payroll, and other administrative functions, there is no need to have a human to do the bean counting and paper filing. Thus, eventually Gibson will be a smaller company with less mouths to feed. And I suspect the prices of their guitars will continue to grow with the economy. Keep in mind that middle class income in the USA is $125 to $150K. And that's the market that Gibson is targeting.

 

[Johnny Crab]

But it would be a sad day when a company with such a history would close its doors, same as it will be a sad day (from a nostalgia standpoint) when Sears closes its doors.

Gibson wrecked Steinberger IMO.
We'll see them sold and the clone Gisbon's will get a spelling correction on their headstock along with a slight price mod. Epiphone should spin off as their own company as their basses are better than Gibson's at this point in time. I've owned 60's T-birds, 60's Epi's, EB's and EBOL's. They do NOT make them like they used to IMO. My 2006 Gibson TB got sold because a $199 Brice TB copy outperformed it in real world situations(band mix, rejection of electrical noise in buildings, and pickup tonal quality). If the 2006 had the 1964 pickups, it may have been different.

It's sad and all that but the market vs Gibson management is what it is.

 

[tubestuff]

and how much were you making in 1972
What was the average wage, $4 an hour?

You cannot look at prices in a vacuum. Prices were lower, as we're earnings. There is a very small difference between $300 in 1972 and $700 today.

Good point Hounddog,


Inflation is a big part of the problem (perception?). One oz $20 gold coin in 1932 was worth... $20.

The value of gold has not changed but an oz of gold is now around $1200 because the dollar is worth less. 60 times less. Good suit in 1932, $20, in 2017, $1200.

A silver dollar on my paper rout in 1964 was worth... $1. Today it's worth $17

So a '64 Fender that could be had for maybe $200 in '64, just to keep it simple, would cost $3400 today, all things being the same.

Not too far off for a good US Fender.

So you could look at $1500 -$2500 Fender or Fodera, Lakland or whatever to be a bargain in terms of inflation.

The problem is, if you make $100K in today dollars, in '64 dollars it is equal to a yearly income of around $5800. That's just in 50 years.

Manufacturers now have to deal with overhead, unions, (some of them), equipment, healthcare, pensions, environment and on and on. It's understandable the crap overhead we pay to cover their costs.

Other countries don't have as many restrictions if any and can out compete in many cases due to the above.

Point being, things are pretty much the same now ratio-wise as they were back in the good old days... sorta.

 

[Gizmot]

Gibson's problems all boil down to bad management. They are heavily in debt because they've bought a bunch of brands they should have stayed away from and they have lost focus on their core business.

This debt crises comes at a particularly bad time because the instrument market is down worldwide.

Books will be written and masters thesis studied about the mistakes made by Gibson and it's CEO.

 

[navijaz]

I stopped caring about Gibson years ago after I took delivery of my Gibson Custom Shop Alex Lifeson ES-355.
The volute on each & every one of the 200 guitars made were positioned in the wrong place.
The location of the volute bothered be enough that I ended up selling the guitar - a guitar that I had wished & waited decades for.
Specs for the peak of the volute called for it to be placed just behind the nut (the usual place for a volute on a Gibson guitar) , but some dip$h!t reading the plans incorrectly placed the volute between the nut & 1st fret, and every one of the production models has this ridiculous & embarrassing flaw.
This error was never corrected, and when owners raised a stink & logged dozens of complaints on the Gibson forums, the complaint threads were locked & the company refused to even acknowledge the issue, stating only that "Alex has approved the model".
I'm sure that "approval" came with very little choice involved, and most likely some extra cash and/or freebies to Alex to compensate for their eff-up. Gibson should have done the right thing by correcting the flawed necks (or better yet scrapping them & building new ones when they discovered the issue), but they didn't.
What arrogant disrespect, not only for the 200 customers, but for Mr. Lifeson himself.

Here is a pic of the template used for all of the Lifeson ES-355 production necks.
View attachment 2711031

Just... WOW!

Unfortunately, that is exactly in line with my impression of that company.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Acoustic is a joke compared to its roots. Now its just a name on a low quality amp. ( not to offend those who play through a newer one). I owned serveral of the older ones from the 1970's, these days I wouldnt buy one but that's just me.

I do own a Kustom Coupe 36 all tube guitar amp made in the USA back in the mid 2000's and it is my favorite gigging amp in that price range. Killer amp for the group I play guitar in ( for clarity I have owned all tube British Marshalls, Meda Boogie, Egnater, 1967 Ampeg, etc. etc.)

The Acoustic Control Corporation arose from ashes in 2011 as Acoustic USA to once again manufacture the Acoustic 360/361 legendary models as well as other legacy cabs and amps.

I love the vintage Acoustic Control Corp combos with their white speakers and folded horn cabs. They were and still are beast performers and are actually easy to move around and pretty light for their time.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

View attachment 2693514
This EB is a lover. So is that Koa Kawai. 2 of my lifers.
Sometimes, whoever it is, they just nail it!

Seeing such beautiful basses-- then to think of how they're sinking today, bad business decisions, poor quality manufacturing.... is heart-breaking.

 

[BAG]

The only Gibson bass I've played was a 120th anniversary SG. Now, you'd expect a company to put their best efforts into something they are marketing as a special anniversary offering and which they were asking$1600 (Aussie dollars).
The fit and finish was average at best and the fretwork wasn't as good as my $280 Squier Jag Short Scale. It might possibly have been the best sounding bass on the planet but i would never find out as there was no way I'd ever pay that money for something that was so average in build quality so there was no point in plugging it in.

 

[mikewalker]

I wouldn't blame it on all on phones. There are possibly as many musicians today as there were 20 years ago. In high school 25 years ago, I knew one bass player and a few guitarists.

Also, the synth and sample world was ripped open by technology catching up with the needs to hold libraries of samples or create synths. I would bet that world is much more interesting to kids. It is to me. I will always love playing bass. However, I can do so much more in my laptop. With my bass, I can learn, write and perform bass parts. With my computer, I can compose, produce, and perform entire tracks.

For example, $1,400 buys you Ableton Live full suite with a Push2 controller. This loads you up with a DAW for track production (from recording to mastering), a live performance tool, and a library of instruments with a ton of presets and customizable parameters, including a sampler that lets you load in any sound you can record. Assuming a household has $1,400 for a kid to spend on music gear, I'd bet a laptop is already available, so excluding that expense, $1,400 of software and a hardware controller opens up a lot more opportunities than $1,400 of bass gear (which would get you a decent bass and amp with accessories). ...

It's a little off-topic, but what jumps out at me here is that "the kid" referenced above is spending $1400 TO PLAY WITH HIMSELF / HERSELF. Not really playing with a small ensemble of other musicians, which was still happening as recently as 25 years ago. Everything seems to be Me, Myself, and iPhone, nowadays...

 

[Deleted member 165050]

It's a little off-topic, but what jumps out at me here is that "the kid" referenced above is spending $1400 TO PLAY WITH HIMSELF / HERSELF. Not really playing with a small ensemble of other musicians, which was still happening as recently as 25 years ago. Everything seems to be Me, Myself, and iPhone, nowadays...

Playing music with others isn't what it used to be... rather than just jam and enjoy playing and maybe gig if things go that way, thanks to modern technology everything you do is videoed and/or photographed and on social media almost before you've finished doing it. There's always some idiot who thinks their every experienced must be recorded and become part of humanity's tedious internet record of every boring moment. For me that is what is killing the band scene as it was, that and every little local venue dropping band gigs in favour of open mics...