Fodera Club Part III

[thepontif]

Extended B...

Originally an experiment conceived by a bass player named Mike Frost and first implemented on the Edward Bass (I'm almost sure). I had the idea separately from Mike Frost because I wanted to have my headstock laid out so that the non speaking lengths of the E, A, and D were identical to a J bass. So I thought of putting the B out at the end of the headstock. I think the first drawings including that feature were of my headstock. I hope I remember that right. The extra tension thing was not on my mind.

Short answer: No, adding non-speaking length to the string does not increase it's tension at pitch at all.

Slightly longer answer: There are other factors at play but there's no real data on what does what to what under what circumstances as it specifically pertains to a B string on a 34" bass guitar. Any piano designer knows that the non-speaking length of a string has an effect on the sound of the string and of the instrument. There is a lot of physics to support that. Which concepts apply is a guess at best. All I can say that I can defend as scientific with any specificity is that there is probably a subjective difference and no true apples to apples way to test the validity of that statement.

Ambiguous enough for you?

 

[TapyTap]

Ambiguous enough for you?

 

[Christian Houmann]

I can't stop myself on posting this..

A Matt Garrison Signature bass with narrower string spacing from Japan....I wish I had spare money to buy this beauty and luckily, it is not a 6 that similar to mine on ordering...

Any info on this on.. Jason?

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It looks similar to the one Janek Gwizdala plays. Both Tony Grey and Gwizdala have narrow string spacing. From what I know Tony Grey have 18 mm and Gwizdala have 17 mm.

Nice bass! What wood is the toneblock? Never seen it that dark.

 

[TimothyGroovy]

Nice bass! What wood is the toneblock? Never seen it that dark.

I guess it is Alder?!

 

[Just Thumpin']

Yes!

17.5 mm spacing?

 

[Just Thumpin']

The Tone Block is Alder...similar sound wise to the Chestnut that we used to use but, alas, cannot get anymore...

I can't stop myself on posting this..

A Matt Garrison Signature bass with narrower string spacing from Japan....I wish I had spare money to buy this beauty and luckily, it is not a 6 that similar to mine on ordering...

Any info on this on.. Jason?

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It looks similar to the one Janek Gwizdala plays. Both Tony Grey and Gwizdala have narrow string spacing. From what I know Tony Grey have 18 mm and Gwizdala have 17 mm.

Nice bass! What wood is the toneblock? Never seen it that dark.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Hi gang...on string spacing...

Our standard Fodera Bridge can be adjusted for 18.0 mm - 20.00 mm, anything outside of those ranges require a different bridge. I don't think that anyone has ever wanted WIDER spacing, but in terms of narrower...yes, you get below 18.0 mm we use Hipshot bridges and the one that we use depends on how narrow the person wants to go....

As for the Extended B Headstock...

The bottom line is that Joey and Vinny both feel that for 34" and shorter scale lengths, using the Extended B headstock has a tangible benefit to the instrument. Whether it affects string tension or just the tone of the instrument I cannot answer...

I am NOT an experienced 5-stringer (99.9% of my musical life has been spent on 4-strings), and so answering from my own experience would be disingenuous, but I will say that my partners do feel strongly about it and do believe that there are tangible benefits. I will leave the discussion about it to people like Pope and others that have heavy duty gigging experience with both...

 

[thepontif]

I agree there are tangible benefits. Speaking scientifically, I can cite phenomena that might cause that benefit. I just can't quantify it. So for me it remains a "belief" which is something I hate to have to defend. It's easier for us believers to try to prove the existence of something than it is for non-believers to make a case for something's non-existence. I know the B on my bass is killer...really killer...especially with the most recent strings which seem to be even better than they used to be. Imagine that!

At any rate, it doesn't increase static string tension at pitch. What it does dynamically is up for debate. Personally, I'm with Joey and Vinny in that I believe it's worthwhile to do. But I don't want to get into a discussion about why unless we want to start an endless tit for tat discussion about things none of us can definitively prove.

 

[Joelc73]

Awesome! A stunning bass. Enjoy it.

JC

First of all, thanks to Jason for the tremendous work with my original order...
Here is my first Fodera: Presentation Shape, Walnut crotch hand carved top, 5 piece ash with stringers neck, semi hollow ash body, Aero dual coil PU in Lincoln Goines position, passive
... just me and my bass guitar.
Pictures from Fodera, will get it next week. I'm sure will enjoy.

 

[PDavyduck]

Yep, I had a 34" fetless (non-Fodera but was a custom made bass) and we did an "Edward" style extended B.

I have yet to play a 34" (or 35" for that matter) bass with a B string that was playable and usable beyond the 7th fret like that bass. The B on that bass was good enough to use well past the 7th fret, no flab, articulate, and good timbre.

So yes, not sure the physics but it does make a difference.

 

[gre107]

I agree there are tangible benefits. Speaking scientifically, I can cite phenomena that might cause that benefit. I just can't quantify it. So for me it remains a "belief" which is something I hate to have to defend. It's easier for us believers to try to prove the existence of something than it is for non-believers to make a case for something's non-existence. I know the B on my bass is killer...really killer...especially with the most recent strings which seem to be even better than they used to be. Imagine that!

At any rate, it doesn't increase static string tension at pitch. What it does dynamically is up for debate. Personally, I'm with Joey and Vinny in that I believe it's worthwhile to do. But I don't want to get into a discussion about why unless we want to start an endless tit for tat discussion about things none of us can definitively prove.

I agree Mike. I'm a skeptic and always need some tangible proof and I hate to admit that I only have a belief with no proof! But I know that it works!

Oh well, now I'm going to have to look into it more and dust off the physics / engineering books! It'll keep me off the streets at least!

 

[thepontif]

A lot of it has to do with the relationship between the transverse and longitudinal vibration of the string. The relatively gentle angle over the head stock doesn't necessarily entirely stop the longitudinal vibration of the string...so the actual length of the string as it vibrates in the longitudinal mode is increased, and hence the frequency of that mode is lower. If that frequency happens to wind up being a multiple of (or a consonant part of the overtone series of) the transverse mode's fundamental, it will have a more synergistic and supportive effect on the overall sound of the string. You can read more about this...which is fact, not theory...at the link below. Bear in mind that in a piano, the strings are sharply cut off where on a bass the strings make a fairly gentle angle over the nut and a B has much, much less tension than a piano string and hence less down bearing.

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[chris.gotfunk]

A lot of it has to do with the relationship between the transverse and longitudinal vibration of the string. The relatively gentle angle over the head stock doesn't necessarily entirely stop the longitudinal vibration of the string...so the actual length of the string as it vibrates in the longitudinal mode is increased, and hence the frequency of that mode is lower. If that frequency happens to wind up being a multiple of (or a consonant part of the overtone series of) the transverse mode's fundamental, it will have a more synergistic and supportive effect on the overall sound of the string. You can read more about this...which is fact, not theory...at the link below. Bear in mind that in a piano, the strings are sharply cut off where on a bass the strings make a fairly gentle angle over the nut and a B has much, much less tension than a piano string and hence less down bearing.

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Now I know why Fodera's prices are so high. It is because of people like Mike who are smart as h*ll and know what they are truly doing. I consider myself intelligent enough to follow most things, but this one left me licking the glass.
Thanks!!!

 

[Chateauabovall]

Wor, it's amazing....
I really like the "customized" model. (Although every single fodera bass is custom bulit)
What is the scale??
Congratulation man...

I hope mine will finished tomorrow, or tomorrow will be Nov 2011.

All the best,
Man-Ho

This is a 35'' scale.
Hope your bass will exceed your expectations (as it did with mine and seems to do with all Fodera community members around here)

RB

 

[Angus]

A lot of it has to do with the relationship between the transverse and longitudinal vibration of the string. The relatively gentle angle over the head stock doesn't necessarily entirely stop the longitudinal vibration of the string...so the actual length of the string as it vibrates in the longitudinal mode is increased, and hence the frequency of that mode is lower. If that frequency happens to wind up being a multiple of (or a consonant part of the overtone series of) the transverse mode's fundamental, it will have a more synergistic and supportive effect on the overall sound of the string. You can read more about this...which is fact, not theory...at the link below. Bear in mind that in a piano, the strings are sharply cut off where on a bass the strings make a fairly gentle angle over the nut and a B has much, much less tension than a piano string and hence less down bearing.

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The problem in directly correlating this analysis is that the boundary conditions are extremely different, as are the forces involved (less of an issue), and the striking method is different (plucking rolls the string slightly, and that bit of torsion will definitely affect any sort of modal analysis).

The difference is angle between a tuner near the nut and far from it, assuming that the near tuner is at least far away enough that the string isn't having to compress excessively to bend, is going to be so minor. The headstock angle is the same, so the fact that it's lower relative to the nut compared to the near tuner is irrelevant mathematically, and at best it might get an extra couple degrees if it is able to cleanly make it to the bottom of the tuning peg. Not a big difference.

I think the different contact pressure gradient over the nut could have some effect due to the lateral angle (though not the downward force on the nut, as that is probably only changing by less than a lb). In terms of modal analysis, I'd agree that it could potentially have some effect, but to compare it to a piano just because of the similar string construction is tenuous at best, because the boundary conditions and input conditions are totally different.

Actually assessing the vibratory modes is pretty easy to do with a bit of equipment, but even then people will still believe what they wish to.

 

[AkosBass]

Hello everybody !
These are my fodera basses:

Akos

 

[thepontif]

My point was this:

1) The longitudinal vibration of the string is probably not entirely stopped by the nut

2) The longitudinal vibration of a string is not affected by tension. Given the same string and conditions, the only factor is length. This is one reason why detuning an E to D gives more growl, because you've changed the transverse mode frequency and not the longitudinal mode frequency.

3) The mention of the angle over the headstock was meant to point out that there's not enough angle there to completely stop a longitudinal compressional wave, where the bridge of a piano does. Obviously there's no differrence in angle when using the 1st tuner vs. the last.

4) The link to the piano discussion was so folks could read about the longitudinal mode vs. transverse mode thing in a paper written by one of the worlds great authorities on the subject. The physics of stretched string behavior doesn't change from instrument to instrument.

The comparison involves the same bass struck the same way on the same string terminated in 2 different ways at one end. And given that, the reasons I cited for why there could be a quantifiable difference are by no means tenuous.

 

[KJung]

My point was this:

1) The longitudinal vibration of the string is probably not entirely stopped by the nut

2) The longitudinal vibration of a string is not affected by tension. Given the same string and conditions, the only factor is length. This is one reason why detuning an E to D gives more growl, because you've changed the transverse mode frequency and not the longitudinal mode frequency.

3) The mention of the angle over the headstock was meant to point out that there's not enough angle there to completely stop a longitudinal compressional wave, where the bridge of a piano does. Obviously there's no differrence in angle when using the 1st tuner vs. the last.

4) The link to the piano discussion was so folks could read about the longitudinal mode vs. transverse mode thing in a paper written by one of the worlds great authorities on the subject. The physics of stretched string behavior doesn't change from instrument to instrument.

The comparison involves the same bass struck the same way on the same string terminated in 2 different ways at one end. And given that, the reasons I cited for why there could be a quantifiable difference are by no means tenuous.

More likely any impact in that design tonewise is due to the higher mass of the larger headstock than any impact of a few inches of extra wire after the nut

 

[cnltb]

Talking of heads...
Would someone here like to hazard a guess or speak from experience etc as to the impact the size of the head may have on the behavior of a bass?

 

[thepontif]

I don't know, but in the case of my bass the headstock doesn't appear to be any bigger than a standard one so I have a hard time believing that's a factor in my bass.

And a few inches of string length is in the neighborhood of 10% of the length of a 34" long string. That's really a lot. If you replaced the nut with a fret and moved the nut back a few inches the pitch of the string would drop about a 3rd.

As I said before, at the end of the day this falls into the category of belief. It's like stretch tuning a piano. Techs can defend stretch tuning a piano, but when you start to really look at the "science" they cite, the only argument that holds up is that they like the way pianos sound better when tuned that way. I can sit here and show reasonable doubt in any "proof" that the extended B headstock DOESN'T make any difference and back it all up by science all day long. I also can't prove it DOES make a difference, but I can cite lots of reasons why it might. There's really no point. There will never be a definative answer to this.

I think the original debate came from someone's false assertion that Fodera was doing this as a gimmick that they knew (or didn't care) had no real benefit to the sound of the instrument. Now that everyone (save the totally unreasonable ones) is comfortable with the fact that Fodera isn't trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the industry, there's probably not much to be gained from talking about it anymore other than using up TB bandwidth.