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Fodera Club Part VIII

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#241
Mark Latimour said:
What's your take on the NYC series?
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I know what you're trying to do Mark. ;-)

Two things.

First, NYC series basses aren't exact copies of Fenders at all.

Secondly, I think exact duplicates of anything, are lame. These are exact duplicates. Everything from the way they are built (check out the neck joints) to how thick the tops are, the tummy cuts blah blah blah. 100%. If someone wants to do an artistic single cut because they are inspired by Vinnie's work, awesome. If they just want to do zero work and completely steal it, then no. I don't like what Sadowsky does with most of their basses for example. I don't like what Ray Rogers does a lot of the time. There are a ton of guys building who come up with great original ideas, so the ones that take the easy way out are cheating in my opinion. I have way more respect for the artisan who offers their vision to the world. I have almost none for a guy who can carve and just steals someone else's inspiration. What's funny is that this SEEMS plain as day. At least to me. I guess there are still millions of people though who think stealing music and software on the internet is a good thing to do. Arguing in pro of theft. Sweet!

To answer Steubig, I'm aware of people taking ideas from Fodera. Taking inspiration and incorporating your own ideas is fine. I remember when Benavente came out and got a bunch of flack for being very Fodera-ish, but his stuff isn't really a copy at all. It's inspired by. More power to him. I've owned several Foderas myself over the years. But that's not why I think this is wrong.

It's always harder to stand up for what you think is right...though I think it's funny that it catches flak. Oh well. I'll defend Fodera (and anyone else who gets stolen from) on this until I'm dead and buried. Or perhaps cremated. Or if I die in a hideous explosion, swept off the curb.
 
#242
BassSaxMan said:
To answer Steubig, I'm aware of people taking ideas from Fodera. Taking inspiration and incorporating your own ideas is fine. I remember when Benavente came out and got a bunch of flack for being very Fodera-ish, but his stuff isn't really a copy at all. It's inspired by. More power to him. I've owned several Foderas myself over the years. But that's not why I think this is wrong.
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just to be clear. i wasn't giving a judgement one way or the other. i was merely reporting that people copying fodera stuff has been going on for along time.

that being said. sections of the conversation were not exactly, um, forgiving on the subject. eventually the more philosophical viewpoint of jason's flattery comment came to the fore.
 
#243
BassSaxMan said:
I know what you're trying to do Mark. ;-)

Two things.

First, NYC series basses aren't exact copies of Fenders at all.

Secondly, I think exact duplicates of anything, are lame. These are exact duplicates. Everything from the way they are built (check out the neck joints) to how thick the tops are, the tummy cuts blah blah blah. 100%.
Click to expand...

Except that they're not exact duplicates are they? No more than say a NYC is an exact duplicate of a FMT Jazz. They have certainly pinched certain design cues from Fodera, Dzozd and Ritter and amalgamated them, but the overall product is not an exact duplicate of any of those products. Its just a question of degree. How much was the Emperor or an NYC inspired by a Fender Jazz vs how much of it is original design? How much of these basses are taking inspiration from three distinct brands and amalgamating them rather into a different bass rather than just building an Emperor clone?

As may people have mentioned, every builder, including Fodera, takes inspiration from whats come before them. Are there truely any original ideas in bass building? Maybe, but they are pretty rare.
 
#245
Mark Latimour said:
Except that they're not exact duplicates are they? No more than say a NYC is an exact duplicate of a FMT Jazz. They have certainly pinched certain design cues from Fodera, Dzozd and Ritter and amalgamated them, but the overall product is not an exact duplicate of any of those products. Its just a question of degree. How much was the Emperor or an NYC inspired by a Fender Jazz vs how much of it is original design? How much of these basses are taking inspiration from three distinct brands and amalgamating them rather into a different bass rather than just building an Emperor clone?

As may people have mentioned, every builder, including Fodera, takes inspiration from whats come before them. Are there truely any original ideas in bass building? Maybe, but they are pretty rare.
Click to expand...

One word: Mothman.
 
#246
Mark Latimour said:
Except that they're not exact duplicates are they? No more than say a NYC is an exact duplicate of a FMT Jazz. They have certainly pinched certain design cues from Fodera, Dzozd and Ritter and amalgamated them, but the overall product is not an exact duplicate of any of those products. Its just a question of degree. How much was the Emperor or an NYC inspired by a Fender Jazz vs how much of it is original design? How much of these basses are taking inspiration from three distinct brands and amalgamating them rather into a different bass rather than just building an Emperor clone?

As may people have mentioned, every builder, including Fodera, takes inspiration from whats come before them. Are there truely any original ideas in bass building? Maybe, but they are pretty rare.
Click to expand...

+1
 
#248
Big time! It's also a matter of personal taste...although I am intellectually interested by those luthiers that make instruments strikingly similar to ours, I (speaking personally only) would never want to own or routinely play one of them. I am a guy that respects the genuine article...in wine, in art, in music, in cars, in homes...I like to get back to the root of the inspiration and deal with that on its terms.

Thank goodness that it is a big World and that there are enough people in it that can tell the differences, respect the differences and be interested enough in what we do to keep us busy.

By the way, my relatively benign view of this stuff is NOT shared by my partners. And, given how much of their lives went into getting Fodera to this point and the personal sacrifices that they made along the way, I cannot blame them...

Munjibunga said:
It'd probably become an issue if an abalone butterfly showed up on the headstock.
Click to expand...
 
#249
Just Thumpin' said:
Big time! It's also a matter of personal taste...although I am intellectually interested by those luthiers that make instruments strikingly similar to ours, I (speaking personally only) would never want to own or routinely play one of them. I am a guy that respects the genuine article...in wine, in art, in music, in cars, in homes...I like to get back to the root of the inspiration and deal with that on its terms.

Thank goodness that it is a big World and that there are enough people in it that can tell the differences, respect the differences and be interested enough in what we do to keep us busy.

By the way, my relatively benign view of this stuff is NOT shared by my partners. And, given how much of their lives went into getting Fodera to this point and the personal sacrifices that they made along the way, I cannot blame them...
Click to expand...

Not so much in response to your post Jason, but following on from it...

I think there's a huge gulf between "drawing inspiration from" and "making copies of" a utilitarian product like a guitar. Every artist or craftsman draws inspiration from something and uses that to create their product. That's quite distinct from a chinese factory making knock-offs of a particular brand that are intended to be "fakes". My wife is a big handbag "fan" and also an IP lawyer. Through her i've really come to appreciate how most of the handbags you see in completely credible low to mid-range manufacturers are basically heavily inspired versions of famous bags (so many are derived from the Chanel 255 (or whatever its called) and the Vuiton Speedy). THey take the same design cues and are suppose to demonstrate that, but they are not copies. I think the same applies to basses.

There are lot of basses out there that are clearly taking design elements from other basses and creating a new product with them. Is a Nordy sufficiently different from a jazz bass with its slightly different body shape? What about a Sadowsky's downsized body and chambering? A Fodera NYC? A Fodera Emperor? At what point does it stop being inspired by and start being a copy? I think the key difference is perhaps more legal, its where the manufacturer of the instrument intends it to be mistaken for the real thing (ie passing off). Does Fodera intend for its NYCs to be mistaken for a Fender Jazz? Clearly not - they have their own brand just like Sadowsky and Nordstrand etc. And in the case of this new Fodera/Ritter/Drozd hybrid, I think the maker genuinely wants to push his own brand and not to manufacture copies.

Unless and until bass manufactures start trademarking their body designs and enforcing those trademarks (pretty unlikely), there is little that can be done about other builders drawing inspiration from their designs. The key for me as a customer and as a fan of basses is whether the builder set out to copy a bass or to just build something drawing inspiration from another builder they admire.
 
#250
Mark, GREAT post. +1!

Mark Latimour said:
Not so much in response to your post Jason, but following on from it...

I think there's a huge gulf between "drawing inspiration from" and "making copies of" a utilitarian product like a guitar. Every artist or craftsman draws inspiration from something and uses that to create their product. That's quite distinct from a chinese factory making knock-offs of a particular brand that are intended to be "fakes". My wife is a big handbag "fan" and also an IP lawyer. Through her i've really come to appreciate how most of the handbags you see in completely credible low to mid-range manufacturers are basically heavily inspired versions of famous bags (so many are derived from the Chanel 255 (or whatever its called) and the Vuiton Speedy). THey take the same design cues and are suppose to demonstrate that, but they are not copies. I think the same applies to basses.

There are lot of basses out there that are clearly taking design elements from other basses and creating a new product with them. Is a Nordy sufficiently different from a jazz bass with its slightly different body shape? What about a Sadowsky's downsized body and chambering? A Fodera NYC? A Fodera Emperor? At what point does it stop being inspired by and start being a copy? I think the key difference is perhaps more legal, its where the manufacturer of the instrument intends it to be mistaken for the real thing (ie passing off). Does Fodera intend for its NYCs to be mistaken for a Fender Jazz? Clearly not - they have their own brand just like Sadowsky and Nordstrand etc. And in the case of this new Fodera/Ritter/Drozd hybrid, I think the maker genuinely wants to push his own brand and not to manufacture copies.

Unless and until bass manufactures start trademarking their body designs and enforcing those trademarks (pretty unlikely), there is little that can be done about other builders drawing inspiration from their designs. The key for me as a customer and as a fan of basses is whether the builder set out to copy a bass or to just build something drawing inspiration from another builder they admire.
Click to expand...
 
#251
Oh my God!
Poor old Stradivari, by today all brands of violins look and are built in the same way, and nobody is going to make a claim.
Why? Maybe all the rest will never sound like the Master's work.
Lol!
 
#253
Has anyone here owned an Emperor II and an Emperor 1? What did you see different in tone, attack and any other variations? I have an Emperor II on order, but idle hands are making me wonder if an Emperor 1 would be better.

Just asking for advise from the people who might know. I have owned a Monarch, so I'm sold on my decision to get another Fodera.

Thanks Guys
 
#254
Just Thumpin' said:
Big time! It's also a matter of personal taste...although I am intellectually interested by those luthiers that make instruments strikingly similar to ours, I (speaking personally only) would never want to own or routinely play one of them. I am a guy that respects the genuine article...in wine, in art, in music, in cars, in homes...I like to get back to the root of the inspiration and deal with that on its terms.

Thank goodness that it is a big World and that there are enough people in it that can tell the differences, respect the differences and be interested enough in what we do to keep us busy.

By the way, my relatively benign view of this stuff is NOT shared by my partners. And, given how much of their lives went into getting Fodera to this point and the personal sacrifices that they made along the way, I cannot blame them...
Click to expand...

Just i am with you here, GIVE ME the real deal or don't give me anything. One day when i can afford a FODERA i am sure i will be buying a FODERA and not one that LOOKS like one. I am not knocking anyone, but i sure as heck am not going to CHINATOWN to buy a fake ROLEX. So i agree with you 100%.
 
#257
OliveFodera said:
Thought the TB members might appreciate these two vids:

One of my favorite Chick Corea tunes with Mike on bass.

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&

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It doesn't get much better than this if you are a CC fan. Splendid!
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Yes, Mike does a great job on that.. I'm a big CC fan.. When Vic played with them out at Yoshi's a couple years back... I saw 8 shows in a row... :-) it was awesome
 
#258
TheSiberian said:
Oh my God!
Poor old Stradivari, by today all brands of violins look and are built in the same way, and nobody is going to make a claim.
Why? Maybe all the rest will never sound like the Master's work.
Lol!
Click to expand...

Did you mean Amati(1505-1578)? -Not sure if he was the first, but he sure preceded AntonioStradivarius(1644-1737).:)
 
#259
Mark Latimour said:
Not so much in response to your post Jason, but following on from it...

I think there's a huge gulf between "drawing inspiration from" and "making copies of" a utilitarian product like a guitar. Every artist or craftsman draws inspiration from something and uses that to create their product. That's quite distinct from a chinese factory making knock-offs of a particular brand that are intended to be "fakes". My wife is a big handbag "fan" and also an IP lawyer. Through her i've really come to appreciate how most of the handbags you see in completely credible low to mid-range manufacturers are basically heavily inspired versions of famous bags (so many are derived from the Chanel 255 (or whatever its called) and the Vuiton Speedy). THey take the same design cues and are suppose to demonstrate that, but they are not copies. I think the same applies to basses.

There are lot of basses out there that are clearly taking design elements from other basses and creating a new product with them. Is a Nordy sufficiently different from a jazz bass with its slightly different body shape? What about a Sadowsky's downsized body and chambering? A Fodera NYC? A Fodera Emperor? At what point does it stop being inspired by and start being a copy? I think the key difference is perhaps more legal, its where the manufacturer of the instrument intends it to be mistaken for the real thing (ie passing off). Does Fodera intend for its NYCs to be mistaken for a Fender Jazz? Clearly not - they have their own brand just like Sadowsky and Nordstrand etc. And in the case of this new Fodera/Ritter/Drozd hybrid, I think the maker genuinely wants to push his own brand and not to manufacture copies.

Unless and until bass manufactures start trademarking their body designs and enforcing those trademarks (pretty unlikely), there is little that can be done about other builders drawing inspiration from their designs. The key for me as a customer and as a fan of basses is whether the builder set out to copy a bass or to just build something drawing inspiration from another builder they admire.
Click to expand...

+1 on most of this post. I do however think that a couple of builders are, regardless of built quality and finish, going too far.
 
#260
Ivan M said:
Just i am with you here, GIVE ME the real deal or don't give me anything. One day when i can afford a FODERA i am sure i will be buying a FODERA and not one that LOOKS like one. I am not knocking anyone, but i sure as heck am not going to CHINATOWN to buy a fake ROLEX. So i agree with you 100%.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. But to play devil's advocate, wouldn't that mean you would be playing a Fender and not a Sadowsky?
 
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