Which was my point.
KJung said:
You may have missed this post earlier:
See, issue resolved, and neither of us had to go back to business school.
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Fodera Essence.
- Thread starter Mark Wilson
- Start date
Which was my point.
You may have missed this post earlier:
See, issue resolved, and neither of us had to go back to business school.
Which was my point.
You may have missed this post earlier:
See, issue resolved, and neither of us had to go back to business school.
+1
The wood suppliers go through the wood before anyone contacts them. They grade the wood. If anything, Fodera would be in competition with other boutique builders, not Fender and Gibson, for woods that meet their needs as far as the exotic stuff. What kind of time are you thinking they spend on picking out quality Ash or Maple?
You develope relationships with wood suppliers. You let them know what you want and what you'll accept and it's their job to provide it. If you reject what you don't like, it doesn't take long for most suppliers to get the point. That's a function of establishing the initial relationship and not an ongoing expense.
I have no idea, I have never had to pick out quality ash or maple before. Do they take a hatchet?
Okay, so are you saying that Fodera are unlikely to be paying any more for their wood (or, for example, to get first "pick" of the best grade of wood) than any other boutique builder? That sounds counter intuitive to me (ie not having to pay more to get the best stuff), but I have no experience buying wood and you do. So I will take your word for it.
And I'm saying if you want higher spec components and charge accordingly, the point is moot.
This is not a Fodera specific example: Let's say you can get a high quality off the shelf preamp for $150 and you upcharge another $150 to install it. That's $300 to go against the cost of the bass.
Now consider you have a custom preamp built for you. Typically the preamp builder will spec out a price. Let's say your cost on the custom pre is $350 and you add the same $150 to install it. That's now $500 to go against the cost of the bass. IOW, on a $2k+ bass, not alot more money ($200). Preamps and pickups are usually the most expensive parts.
Maybe someone is building basses with $1k worth of wood. Maybe.
Assuming the nth degree is being chased of course. And there are lots of other costs besides materials.
I don't think they pay more than any of the others , for the materials used.
Why should/would they?
From what I've seen, the quality of the wood, used, and that of the other parts is just as good as the materials used by many others. Many do use customized parts as well.
But I am just guessing.
Why should/would they?
From what I've seen, the quality of the wood, used, and that of the other parts is just as good as the materials used by many others. Many do use customized parts as well.
But I am just guessing.
Its only moot if you assume its completely ignored in the "charge accordingly". I am assuming its probably not. It may be moot from an end user point of view, but given its a factor in cost of production, I am sure the builder takes it into account. That said, I agree with you in terms of the end user point of view.
I have no idea, I have never had to pick out quality ash or maple before. Do they take a hatchet?
No, hatchets are an upcharge. It's strictly mallets and chisels.
I don't know specifically what Fodera pays for wood. Are you saying that other builders don't get similar "best stuff"?
It's moot in making a difference between an $8500 vs. $8300 bass to an end user... at least "I" haven't seen anyone get hung up on the $200 difference in that situation.
It's moot in that it is not costing "me" the builder, any more ultimately to build the bass because it is offset in the cost.
Similar, absolutely. The same? AFAIK you can only make one bass per piece off wood. Maybe you know something I don't. However, assuming the laws of physics still apply, someone ultimately has to end up with the top of the pile and I would assume they (whether its Fodera or not) pay for that.
Right, so costs increase as the price of parts increase. It appears you agree with me!It's moot in making a difference between an $8500 vs. $8300 bass to an end user... at least "I" haven't seen anyone get hung up on the $200 difference in that situation.
It's moot in that it is not costing "me" the builder, any more ultimately to build the bass because it is offset in the cost.
...and on that revealation, I must start my journey home.
Right, so costs increase as the price of parts increase. It appears you agree with me!
...and on that revealation, I must start my journey home.
You really are missing our point.
Here's another way to ask the question.
Do you believe the INCREASE in parts cost explains a significant or even small amount of the variance in the literally $4,000 price INCREASE of an Emperor Elite over the past 4 years or so?
We are not talking about absolute price, or why Fodera's were among the most expensive instruments when they came out. We are all talking about the massive INCREASES in price that are double, triple, or more versus virtually any other high end bass that, in my experience, uses the same quality components, wood, and construction techniques.
We seem to be talking past one another here.
If your answer to the question above is 'yes', then I guess we will just agree to disagree!
Apparently I do. It depends on what one piece of wood is and what you do with it. A more skilled luthier most certainly can get more tops out of one piece of wood than a less skilled one. Did you know that? It's not merely physics.
If you want to assume Fodera pays top dollar, go right ahead. I wouldn't, I think they're more business savvy than that.
Right, so costs increase as the price of parts increase. It appears you agree with me!
...and on that revealation, I must start my journey home.
Yeah, forget that charging more for the parts so it ultimately can cost you less stuff... it only confuses the isssue for some people.
Keep it simple.
i know for a fact that this is what mike tobias does...he's used the same suppliers for years and they know what his standards are...he used to go through the woodpiles, but he now just has the suppliers send the wood to him...
other competitors most of us don't think about include car manufacturers and firearms manufacturers...mike was saying that a redwood log that he had a few tops from was bought by audi to be used for dashboards for $65K...you don't even want to know the cost of some over/under walnut stocked shotguns and some of the private stock walnut weatherby rifles cost for the minute amount of wood required to build one...not trying to derail or anything, but i find this topic pretty interesting, too
I learned alot about woods from Mike way back when. Working with good suppliers actually saves time and money.
I find it to be very interesting too. Especially imagining how many veneers Audi got out of that log and what the upcharge for each was. I doubt they lost money.
somehow i doubt it, too...a couple of tb'ers got some of that redwood, from what i understand, and it was some gorgeous stuff...i'm sure audi has got a pretty sophisticated mechanism for pressing that stuff out wafer thin and forming it to the consoles squeezing out every inch of those board feet and charging out the yin-yang for it...
I don't know; in my experience I think that in terms of sanding, varnishing, gluing, Fodera may not be up to the standards of some other builders, although I think if they used more gloss finishes instead of matte I may not think this way. In terms of the neck and fretwork and everything though, I've not played any other basses that come close. I'm sure others have, but IME, I've found that it is easier to get stupid low action with no buzz out of a Fodera than out of any other bass. I know that I will have loads of people chipping in now with my Stamborgh / Skold / Ken Smith / Celinder / ________________ (insert name of custom of choice here) has lower action than Fodera X, Y, Z that I tried, but... and flame away folks, there must be a reason why the Greys, Gwizdalas, Wootens, Garrisons, Jacksons, Popes etc. choose them apart from their NYC location, because believe me, they're not getting them for free.
Also, just to piss some people off doubly, I do think there is an elegance to their designs (well, except the AJ contrabass) that you don't see on a lot of other customs. Except MTDs.
Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish
Ken, bearing in mind that you and Brad are responding to my post (which was not in response to either of yours), let me start by asking a question of you. Can you please show me where in my post I gave you the impression that I was talking only about the increase rather than the absolute cost of the instrument?
No, and i've never said otherwise that I am aware of. But if you feel that I have, please do let me know where and I will explain what I meant to say. Maybe I mistyped. Here is a summary of the point I was making from earlier:
Mark Latimour said:
I thought you agreed with that. Maybe I was misreading you. If you were making the point about price increases then I am not sure why you were responding to my posts which were about the overall cost of the instrument. If I was responding to your posts, I would have quoted you, as you did me.
