• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Forget Fatfinger I found the deadspot fix!

#81
The Physics of what causes a dead spot is well understood, at least to those of us with schooling in Acoustcal Physics. For those not well versed in this, I can see how it’s mysterious.

While the OP may have heard a difference with what he did, I’m preety sure he didn’t create a miracle cure for dead spots
 
  • Like
Reactions: lz4005
#82
Fullerton50sFan said:
Rich-Are you sure there is no string to string
tree contact? Almost looks like the G could be
touching the shaft (insert dirty joke here)
For what it's worth I just cut in one place and
your's looks very thick.I've recommended 1/16-
3/32-1/8.Might work better for you.
Click to expand...

The string didn’t touch the string tree. I made sure using a feeler gauge. What you’re missing is the nut and every fret pressed into the neck. Those are the points where string vibration is transferred to the neck itself. If you could isolate those from the neck, then you wouldn’t have dead spots since there would be no interaction with the neck. Tone would also be dead to our ears, I suspect. Dave Bunker of Bunker Guitars has a floating neck system. Not sure if it eliminates dead spots.
 
#83
Fullerton50sFan said:
Ross-Some comedy writes it's self;went to Ace
Hardware looking for an appropriate washer.
Found it in a box marked "fender washers"
You can't write better than that. Someone on
here posted "yeah but Leo Fender invented the
electric bass". The reply;"He also invented the dead spot". What if Leo invented the Fender
Washer too? Mo money,mo money
Click to expand...
Ha ha ha that’s fantastic
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavesnothereCA
#85
micguy said:
The Physics of what causes a dead spot is well understood, at least to those of us with schooling in Acoustcal Physics. For those not well versed in this, I can see how it’s mysterious.

While the OP may have heard a difference with what he did, I’m preety sure he didn’t create a miracle cure for dead spots
Click to expand...
How about this-a plucked string sends a
traveling wave up the string where it hits a hard
endpoint,reflecting it and phase inverting it. As
the two pass through each other there is phase
cancellation (see standing wave,which isn't actually a wave but a stationary interference
pattern). This occurs at the anti-node, the
region of greatest oscillation,above the 6th fret,
but expresses from the fourth to the eighth.
What I've done is clamp the string between
damping media under compression ,intercepting
the wave before it returns down the string.
(new design-two washers, a string sandwich)
Not bad for a guy who went to film school yeah?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ICM and Jim C
#86
two fingers said:
Welcome to TalkBass @Fullerton50sFan !!!!

Pretty sweet idea.

I'll be trying it tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Two Fingers-Thanks for the support,buddy,you
will be the first to hear about Fender Washer2,
New and Improved! For the physics behind it
see my reply to micguy's condescending post,
but all you need is the new design parameters;
2 neoprene (rubber)washers,1/16th thick,1 inch
diameter,3/8 hole. Cost could run as high as 1$.
Do Not Cut! They can be carefully stretched over the string tree. Start by loosening the
strings enough to get them out of the way,I use
a clean sock under the second fret and another
covering the pickups to prevent scratching.
Pull the first washer over the string tree (st to
save typing) from below toward the G machine
head. Use a pick to push the washer flat against
the headstock. Put the strings back under light
tension enough to hold them in their nut slots
and running straight across the washer. Now
pull the second washer over the st and massage
it into place. Bring the strings to tension slowly,
alternating strings,about a quarter turn at a time while pressing and pushing the string between washers with your right thumb. Pinch the washers together,pushing them toward the nut. String sandwich,that simple.
Congratulations,you're the first to try the
New and Improved Fender Washers!
One caution,I am using a Fender 9050ML set
which is a 50 G,if you are using a 45,then
you might need to go thicker. Hope you read
this before you hit the hardware store. Trust
me this works,my classic 50s p bass is 100%
now. Good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ICM and Jim C
#89
birminghambass said:
Assesses
If it were the string tree my 3 Stingrays would not have G string dead spots. They all have one.
Click to expand...

I think the Stingrays have a different problem regarding the weak G.
John K once wrote that he spoke to Leo about it and that no body could figure out why.
If you look at a VU meter, I have not found that the amplitude of the G is all that low but rather the low end is much lighter than expected. Both my last year Leo 83' and a super lightweight 96' both have the same issue.
In other words, less low freqs. on the G string only. IMO
 
#90
Fullerton50sFan said:
How about this-a plucked string sends a
traveling wave up the string where it hits a hard
endpoint,reflecting it and phase inverting it. As
the two pass through each other there is phase
cancellation (see standing wave,which isn't actually a wave but a stationary interference
pattern). This occurs at the anti-node, them
region of greatest oscillation,above the 6th fret,
but expresses from the fourth to the eighth.
What I've done is clamp the string between
damping media under compression ,intercepting
the wave before it returns down the string.
(new design-two washers, a string sandwich)
Not bad for a guy who went to film school yeah?
Click to expand...

Your description starts out OK. The snag you hit is the hard end point assumption - if it were a hard end point, you wouldn’t have dead spots.

The neck on your bass is a mass loaded bar, with distinctly assymetric end masses, and a non linear cross section, made of a very non isotropic material (wood). It has resonances (multiple frequencies where it resonates), and where the nodes and antinodes line up with the end point of a string trying to resonate at the same frequency, you get variations in how long the string resonates. When you get a combination of neck position and string tuning with a very short sustain time, we call that a dead spot.

Note that the dead spot is a result of two resonances (the string and the neck) at the same frequency. If you change either - by retuning the string, or by changing the mass loading at the headstock, the dead spot can moved or minimized practically. I have basses where I needed lighter tuners to make them work well, and one bass where I needed heavier tuners - it's tuned in D standard, so it called for a different solution. It had a dead spot on the open G string (the location where you usually have an A string), and the added mass was needed to move the dead spot down in frequency.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: scotch and lz4005
#94
Six more posts before we hit an even hundo and the op has:
-disregarded the unofficial but very much not unwritten Requirement of Pics
-condescended to requests for pics
-referred to experience with shop class and by extension clear written instruction, yet did not punctuate individual steps with either bulletpoints or paragraphic space
-what instructions there were seemed to be Phillips Head Screwdriver Averse.

Interesting thread.

Though, because it involves sound, it should have, in addition to pics, before+after soundclips- especially being that the author is a PHSA syndrome sufferer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beheroth
#96
Fullerton50sFan said:
Iz4005-Thanks for joining in. There is string energy going past the nut (a soft endpoint or
node).The string tree vibrating in sympathy
with the headstock because they are hard coupled sends the plucked note out of phase
over the nut and down the G string to the
antinode.This is the part of the string where
it oscillates the most, above the 6th fret.The
phenomenon is referred to as a "standing wave",but is in fact a stationary interference
pattern which results in partial phase cancellation of the fretted note(s) bracketing
the antinode ,6th fret (typically 4-8). Please
research standing waves,phase cancellation and coupling and let us know what you find.
Click to expand...

You know a lot of big words, none of them relevant to dead spots.

As others have pointed out, if it was string tree related it would happen on the D as well. It doesn't.

It would also disappear when the string tree was removed. That also doesn't happen.

Dead spots are a result of neck stiffness and headstock mass interacting to produce a single resonant frequency in the neck. Period.
 
#97
Yeah, my experience has been that dead spots coincide with notes occurring with the necks resonant frequency. Often these dead spots are easy to predict before the neck is even attached to the body.

The idea of using rubber washers/grommets on the "non ringing" portion of a string is well documented on upright basses and in particular on mandolins. It's not for dead spots but rather sympathetic vibrations that can get out of control! Sorta opposite of what the OP is preaching.

Is that to say that after all that fiddling around the OP did not indeed notice some changes? Of course not! Just that dead spots on an electric bolt on bass neck are already well diagnosed. I would need to see a LOT more basses cured with rubber washers before I start considering this anecdotal evidence as gospel.

Still, a very interesting thread to review! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: RichSnyder and MattZilla
#98
If you really need a photo to build this, then there is no way you could assemble it.
Lots of big engineering talk with no math or theory is just a bunch of opinions.
You don't have to believe it; develop your own fix and post it.

The OP offered a plan that works for him.
That's fair. It's his truth.
If it doesn't work for you, that's fine too.
Questioning his judgement or techinical expertise based on an unsubstantiated opinions is nothing more than a cheap shot.

At least this guy is trying to help others that have a common goal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DavesnothereCA, ICM, RoadRanger and 1 other person
#99
Fullerton50sFan said:
I put a hard rubber fender washer
(how ironic) under the string tree and it completely
eliminated the dead spots at C#(antinode) and D, and the
wolf tones on G#and A. The washer is 1/16 thick 7/16 i.d.
1 inch o.d. It is 1/4in. larger diameter than the string tree
so you will see 1/8in. of rubber showing. this is vital for it
to work,I tried one that was flush with the edge and it only
reduced the dead spot about 80%. I dropped the G and D
strings two whole steps then pulled them out from under
string tree. I cut the washer then pushed it under the
tree.

The hole is oversized so instead of cutting a notch in
the washer I pushed one end under the other at the 12
o'clock position between the strings making it oval which
made sure there was enough rubber under each string.
I then put the strings under the washer and pushed down
on them from below the tree with my thumb as I slowly
brought them to pitch,alternating strings every 1/8 turn
and pinching the washer from the sides and pushing it
toward the nut as I went.
Click to expand...

Jim C said:
If you really need a photo to build this, then there is no way you could assemble it.
Click to expand...

IMO I’m not sure it’s completely fair to say that if someone needs a picture that they are not capable of doing this.
You may be quite adept at picturing this from a description, but not everyone has your super power.

The description of the washer starts out being fairly simple with the OP giving dimensions for the washer he used.
One might have to adjust for different diameters of string trees. The OP does tell us this is critical.
And the ID of the washer seemed quite large compared to the size of a typical string tree screw. But regardless, so far so good.

The part where he starts by saying “the hole is oversized...” becomes more difficult to visualize, and I’ve been doing stuff like this from instructions or my own fabrications pretty much all of my working life.

For a breakthrough as important as this may be, I don’t think it is too much to ask to have a couple of pictures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavesnothereCA
#100
lz4005 said:
You know a lot of big words, none of them relevant to dead spots.

As others have pointed out, if it was string tree related it would happen on the D as well. It doesn't.

It would also disappear when the string tree was removed. That also doesn't happen.

Dead spots are a result of neck stiffness and headstock mass interacting to produce a single resonant frequency in the neck. Period.
Click to expand...
D string-higher mass,lower tension.
G string-lower mass,higher tension.
Todays big words-standing waves
 
  • Like
Reactions: saabfender

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back