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Fretless playing question ...

I have been playing bass for a long time and I'd like to believe my proficiency level is advanced intermediate and I absolutely still need to look at the fretboard often while playing, especially if the song requires quick jumps high up on the neck to play technical runs.

For me, being new to fretless playing, the lines on the neck are a frustrating mind f*ck between my brain, my fingers and my ears. Throughout this thread I see that opinions vary and not everyone's experience is the same as mine but it's been nice to get some validation that I'm not the only player who feels this way about the fretline mindfug.

I'm super motivated and psyched to put the time in to become confident and competent on a fretless axe and since the lines seem to increase the learning curve for me, I've decided to return this lined fretless and replace it with a blank board axe.

Thanks to all who posted on this thread, I truly appreciate the advice.
 
Re: starting on better equipment: I think that the less opportunity for scapegoating, the more you can focus on your issues.
:D

A friend of mine who works at a store told me about a customer who bought his first fretless over a weekend and brought it back a few days later because it wouldn't play in tune.

He gave him a refund.

An experienced pro bassist brought a bass back to a luthier because he felt that some of the dots on an unlined board were in the wrong positions. He went as far as running a strip of masking tape and marking out where he wanted the notes to be. Minus the normal symmetry.

This reminded me of a cartoon where a person complained about why a town had put a "deer crossing" sign where they had. Why couldn't they have the deer cross somewhere else?
 
...

An experienced pro bassist brought a bass back to a luthier because he felt that some of the dots on an unlined board were in the wrong positions. He went as far as running a strip of masking tape and marking out where he wanted the notes to be. Minus the normal symmetry.

...
LOL. Here's my take on that...
IF you want the notes to always be in the same place and the same distance apart, get a piano...
 
IMO Change your attitude, change your altitude. I find it easier to play with the lines but of course to each his own. I know some guys who when playing fretted basses actually play on the frets as well. For me it's not so hard to adjust to playing on the lines when playing fretless. It's still a challenge for me even with the lines. :-) Good luck in the future with your fretless, lined or unlined. Fretless is a different animal that's for sure.
 
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And Nathan East, Paul McCartney, Anthony Jackson, Robert Trujillo, Stanley Clarke, Flea,
I am a pro. There is no single correct way to play electric bass. That is silly. I'm not surprised that someone here would think that and worse, try to pass it off as fact.

You don't have to get the most anything done with the least amount of effort. That is an option. To think it's the only way to accomplish something is silly. But you seem stuck on this for likely obvious reasons.

Watch pros who don't adhere to your rules and get a clue as to the automatic detriment you seem to think is unavoidable. This siliness about getting the "most" anything is telling. No extreme is mandatory when playing the bass. You don't have to use the most or least effort, etc. to get desirable results... it pushing some into obsessing over how they're playing instead of what they're playing. I've sat with players IRL who strive to play practically over the fret, watch me and ask me why I don't. I ask how is my tone. If there's no problem, what would I be fixing by fretting like they do?

Nothing

James Jameson played with high action and one plucking finger. Care to put your results up against his? From what I recall Will Lee prefers high action. I hate it. So Will is wrong for not using the least amount of effort? That's how nonsensical some of this is and I'd bet physics won't co-sign on your position.

With the way I set up my basses (I personally set up my basses), they do not require the amount of force most bassists use to fret. I don't have to press the string hard enough to push it out of tune. Your inability to even consider the possibility that your way is not the only way, considering that you teach... hopefully your students have open enough minds to figure some things out for themselves. Because your rigidity is limiting IMO IME.

Google that.
:D

This reminds me of when someone posted an isolated Chris Squire track and a bass player asked "Can't he play cleanly?"

Sadly, he had no clue that he was completely missing the point.

What exactly is my "rigidity" limiting? Sloppiness? Oh no! Do you think people come to teachers to learn how to be rockstars? Do you think that players who used some unorthodox technique, for instance "neck cradlers" like John Entwhistle, Paul McCartney, aren't aware that theyre using "improper" technique? If you are referring to the isolated bass track of Roundabout in your comment, I really don't know what your friend was listening to, I personally don't consider string rattles to be "unclean technique" in that style; his timing, attack, and articulations are very clean. Idiosyncrasies aside, all those guys still play very close to the fret- which is my actual point in this discussion.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on high vs. low action. That IS absolutely a personal/tonal choice, there is no one "proper" setup. There is a "proper" left hand technique, if you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative. Regardless of setup, proper technique will yield the most efficient results, because of physics.

In so many words, you asked the question "what would improving my technique do for me." Your answer is "nothing." My answer is: reduce the effort needed by your left hand, squeeze a few more BPM out, eliminate any potential for intonation issues, eliminate the potential of fret buzz, make bends and hammerons more controlled, reduce potential for repetitive stress injuries...

My point is, and will remain to be, about left hand finger placement. Most pros use proper left hand placement to get the most efficiency out of their instrument, whether their action is high or low. There are many successful pros who break with conventions, but generally speaking, left hand fingertip placement is not one of them. Every player you mentioned places their fingers very near the fret when playing. Watch videos/look at pictures of them playing. There is such a thing as "proper, textbook" technique, and it's taught for a reason- to optimize mechanical advantage, and use as little effort as possible. Your sanctimonious appeal for the welfare of my students notwithstanding, believe it or not, some students actually WANT to know how to get the most out of their instrument, and if you are not using proper left hand technique, you are leaving untapped potential on your fret board. If you feel you have reached the apex of your technique, congratulations to you, but that is not the case with myself or my students. There is a cut and dry answer how to get the most work done with the least amount of effort with your left hand, you don't see the value in that, nothing more I can do for you in that regard.

Here is a video of 3 guys who use low action, and use proper left hand technique, too.
 
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There is no single correct way to play electric bass. That is silly. I'm not surprised that someone here would think that and worse, try to pass it off as fact.
Enlight4.jpg


the only >>>>FACT<<<< I am "passing off," is the FACT that the closer you pinch to the object fret, the less physical effort it requires to play a satisfactory note. That is a FACT. The benefits of doing so have been stated above. If you choose not to DO that in your own playing,

I

DON'T

CARE.

That doesn't change that FFFFFFAAAAACCCCCTTTTTT. As an educator, I like to present my students, and curious people on this website, with facts, and opinions, and know the difference, and how to present each. I think I have stated and cited enough, if you would like to argue further, please take this up with a physicist.
 

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In keeping with that last topic regarding action ..... great clip of Janek Gwizdala talking about "action" and "Patitucci"



Thx for this.
Yes high action, John also recommends practicing electric bass without an amp (horrors!) from time to time.

EDIT: I dont mean this as a jab. Low action works very well for others. There are many ways to an end. It is more art than science.
 
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Whoa dude...ahem...chill.
Didn't you say you were an educator?

Yes I am an educator, and I do not like when people argue with facts that can help other students. Higher education is filled with opinionated people, arguments happen, it's not always pretty. I find this worth arguing over, and I'm adamant that the correct facts be presented. Brad Johnson Took it upon himself to argue with facts, adamantly so, I am vehemently refuting that argument.
 
EXACTLY where I'm coming from. After 30 years of playing pretty much solidly right in the middle of the frets, now to all of a sudden need to play right up on the line (or pretty close) is going to require a learning curve. If I'm going to put the time in, I think it might be easier to just go with an unlined neck .... I was actually considering this beauty:
View attachment 1118365
Yup. Players who are accustomed to targeting the dots on the fret board edge and fingering half way between the frets have an issue with the lined fretless necks. You are correct that on a lined board the target is stopping the string generally right on the line +/-, depending on intonation. If that is difficult to adjust to on a lined neck, you may likely find the unlined board with the dot markers on the fingerboard edge easier to adapt to.
 
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Yes I am an educator, and I do not like when people argue with facts that can help other students. Higher education is filled with opinionated people, arguments happen, it's not always pretty. I find this worth arguing over, and I'm adamant that the correct facts be presented. Brad Johnson Took it upon himself to argue with facts, adamantly so, I am vehemently refuting that argument.

My point was; what if some of your students read your post? Aside from the bass technique facts issue, do you think they would be impressed with your display of typing rant?

Im really not picking a fight or saying youre wrong, just that you lost your cool. Edit is always an option. See my post (Im removing my quote).
 
Yes I am an educator, and I do not like when people argue with facts that can help other students. Higher education is filled with opinionated people, arguments happen, it's not always pretty. I find this worth arguing over, and I'm adamant that the correct facts be presented. Brad Johnson Took it upon himself to argue with facts, adamantly so, I am vehemently refuting that argument.
Fine; but...

First, please calm down. We are just chatting here about bass playing. Different perspectives are fine.

Second, I can name at least one very prominent bass player who targets the half way point between frets. Chuck Rainey. Here is just one of many examples.


Like you, my preference is to target right snugged up to the fret. I also couldn't figure out for a long time why lines were messing people up. But, after watching folks like Chuck, the issue became clear. Whether or not you consider one or the other approach right or wrong, there are cats playing at a very high level using both, not just one.
 
Talking of lined
Fine; but...

First, please calm down. We are just chatting here about bass playing. Different perspectives are fine.

Second, I can name at least one very prominent bass player who targets the half way point between frets. Chuck Rainey. Here is just one of many examples.


Like you, my preference is to target right snugged up to the fret. I also couldn't figure out for a long time why lines were messing people up. But, after watching folks like Chuck, the issue became clear. Whether or not you consider one or the other approach right or wrong, there are cats playing at a very high level using both, not just one.


Ok well you're right that Chuck is playing back off the fret line, but since my ears are telling me he is perfectly in tune, I would suggest that he has adjusted the intonation to suit that positioning. If you play back off the fret marker with the intonation set to be on the fret marker, you will be flat. Which Chuck isn't.
 
My point was; what if some of your students read your post? Aside from the bass technique facts issue, do you think they would be impressed with your display of typing rant?

Im really not picking a fight or saying youre wrong, just that you lost your cool. Edit is always an option. See my post (Im removing my quote).

Absolutely not a problem if my students read this post. I am happy to have my students know that I am adamant about what I teach them. Why should I keep my cool? Should I pretend that I am not passionate about this? Some students I take a very light approach with, students who are actively interested in optimizing their technique, I don't. I don't yell or belittle, arguments don't happen in my studio anyway. Think about it; Somebody who is completely confident in their technique, wouldn't seek out lessons for technique in the first place.

I'm just 100% honest about what I see in their playing and what I know that can help them. If they continue to struggle and use the same poor technique, I'll point it out every single week until it's fixed. The end result is in the sound, speed, less fatigue, etc., all measurable commodities. If you can sound good without great technique, that's dandy. If you're going to spread the message "hey man, just fret wherever you want, it doesn't really matter," I'm going to disagree. If you're going to eschew the concept of efficiency because you already think you're good enough, so be it, but I don't like that message, especially when it's going to be read by people who are looking to improve their playing.
 
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Talking of lined


Ok well you're right that Chuck is playing back off the fret line, but since my ears are telling me he is perfectly in tune, I would suggest that he has adjusted the intonation to suit that positioning. If you play back off the fret marker with the intonation set to be on the fret marker, you will be flat. Which Chuck isn't.
No, that's a fretted bass. Sorry if that was misdirection. I was referring to players who are used to targeting the mid point between frets on a fretted instrument, when they attempt to transition to fretless.

@Nickweissmusic was making an argument for an approach on the fretted instrument where the string stop occurs immediately behind the fret as being "correct." I personally agree that it is preferable, and it makes a transition to lined fretless boards more apparent. But, the reality is that many, including high level players target between the frets. You are entirely correct that this absolutely does not work on a lined fretless. I suppose you could monkey with intonation; but, i think there are problems there as well.

IME, better to accept the approach the player is using and figure out what kind of fingerboard makes the most sense for them. I use lines, but my fretted approach is complimentary. Cats who finger midway between on fretted are usually more comfortable with the unlined board and using side dots as reference.

Hope that clarifies.
 
So...... now that I've been pleasantly persuaded to get my hands on a un-lined fretless, can I get some feedback on what you think of this:

Smoking Warmoth Fretless Jazz Bass w Sweet Fender HSC

I've been leaning towards a Warwick fretless actually as I really dig my Corvette but I've seen this posting up on Reverb for awhile now and she looks like a real beauty and relatively reasonable. In fact I have the identical QMT burst look on my American dlx J bass. This would make a great twin ... Unfortunately the cat who owns it doesn't play it in the video he added to the listing. I just don't understand that and it makes me a bit leary. To this day I'm still never 100% comfortable buying an axe I can't play or at least hear first.....even though I do it anyway while keeping my fingers crossed and asking a f*ck ton of questions :-)

Can I get some thoughts on what might be the "Pro's and cons" of this bass?