Fretless playing question ...

[Old Garage-Bander]

I'm not a pro. I'm not even good. But I figured that there was no one correct way.
Hence my question. "What if the right place isn't exactly in the right place?"

I misquoted myself! What a doof!
Should have been: "What if the right place isn't exactly on a line?"
Guess I'm not ready for a fretless just yet.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

So...... now that I've been pleasantly persuaded to get my hands on a un-lined fretless, can I get some feedback on what you think of this:

Smoking Warmoth Fretless Jazz Bass w Sweet Fender HSC

SA-MOKIN'!

 

[David Sutkin]

It's between that Warmoth and this Warwick: RB Streamer NT 4 Natural Transparent High Polish Fretless Active Pickups & Electronics, Free Shippin

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Fine; but...

First, please calm down. We are just chatting here about bass playing. Different perspectives are fine.

Second, I can name at least one very prominent bass player who targets the half way point between frets. Chuck Rainey. Here is just one of many examples.


Like you, my preference is to target right snugged up to the fret. I also couldn't figure out for a long time why lines were messing people up. But, after watching folks like Chuck, the issue became clear. Whether or not you consider one or the other approach right or wrong, there are cats playing at a very high level using both, not just one.

Rest assured, I'm calm, just passionate about the subject. I'm not sure how you can watch that video and assert he's targeting the middle. At most, he seems to be about 1/4 of the way back with some 4th finger notes, with many notes right up at the fret. Note that every time he looks down, his fingers are right at the fret, watch the run around 1:15. Yes, frets allow a bit of leeway, as I stated in my first post, but I don't see any evidence of Chuck "targeting the middle" in this song. Taking a relaxed approach on some 4th finger notes, I'll give you.

This has been fun guys. We are engaged in a physical activity, you are welcome to use physics to your advantage, people are welcome to take my advice, or not. Off to the factory!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thx for this.
Yes high action, John also recommends practicing electric bass without an amp (horrors!) from time to time.

EDIT: I dont mean this as a jab. Low action works very well for others. There are many ways to an end. It is more art than science.

Which is why I find these proper technique edicts so mindnumbingly bad. Because there are many perfectly legitimate means to an end.

 

[tpa]

Hey all,
...
Any feedback or advice on this would be appreciated - Thanks

I have started my fretless adventure with the Squier VM Jazz FL as well. I use the lines to assist me in navigating the (fret/line)board, but I also have experienced some limitations they have.
On my bass the lines indicate where the string should contact the neck to have the correct swinging length for a given tone. In my mind that makes good engineering sense since this is a clear definition relating to the playing rather than to the playing technique finger positioning etc.
I have experienced that even with lines it is necessary to know where I put my finger tonewise rather than visually. Probably because the line of sight makes exact visual judgement imprecise. Also the "fretting" point - or what the correct terminology is - is not where my finger ends but somewhere beneath the nail. I got used to it but it takes a little practice. When I practice I test my finger positioning from time to time by comparing to open strings as others also propose in this thread.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Cheap, sad entertainment.

And Nathan East, Paul McCartney, Anthony Jackson, Robert Trujillo, Stanley Clarke, Flea,

What exactly is my "rigidity" limiting? Sloppiness? Oh no! Do you think people come to teachers to learn how to be rockstars? Do you think that players who used some unorthodox technique, for instance "neck cradlers" like John Entwhistle, Paul McCartney, aren't aware that theyre using "improper" technique? If you are referring to the isolated bass track of Roundabout in your comment, I really don't know what your friend was listening to, I personally don't consider string rattles to be "unclean technique" in that style; his timing, attack, and articulations are very clean. Idiosyncrasies aside, all those guys still play very close to the fret- which is my actual point in this discussion.

Your rigidity is the idea that anything other than the one way you think is proper is improper. It is entirely possible that it may be easier for someone to fret another way. But since you ARE fact...

Maybe one day you'll look back on this and some of it will click. It certainly isn't clicking now.

Your point has so many exceptions that it's relegated to what it is... an option, not a singular fact. But you toss in nonsense about physics, which only highlights how inside a tight little box your thinking is.

BTW who decided what the one proper way of fretting is?

I'm not sure why you're fixated on high vs. low action. That IS absolutely a personal/tonal choice, there is no one "proper" setup. There is a "proper" left hand technique, if you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative. Regardless of setup, proper technique will yield the most efficient results, because of physics.

I'm not fixated on it, if you'd actually quit skimming you'll see that I mentioned it in relation to fretting effort, which you definitely are fixated on, although rife with incorrect generalizations. It typically takes more effort to fret strings of equal tension from farther away from the board than closer to it. The amount of effort I use to fret is barely more than placing my finger against the string. You don't seem to comprehend this so you dismiss it instead. The difference in fretting pressure from right at the fret to farther away from it is pretty much nil in the case of folks like me. So use physics to shoot that fact down.

In so many words, you asked the question "what would improving my technique do for me." Your answer is "nothing." My answer is: reduce the effort needed by your left hand, squeeze a few more BPM out, eliminate any potential for intonation issues, eliminate the potential of fret buzz, make bends and hammerons more controlled, reduce potential for repetitive stress injuries...

If I'm using no more effort and my notes sound exactly like I want them to, the benefit, other than making a "teacher" like you happy is?

My point is, and will remain to be, about left hand finger placement. Most pros use proper left hand placement to get the most efficiency out of their instrument, whether their action is high or low. There are many successful pros who break with conventions, but generally speaking, left hand fingertip placement is not one of them. Every player you mentioned places their fingers very near the fret when playing. Watch videos/look at pictures of them playing. There is such a thing as "proper, textbook" technique, and it's taught for a reason- to optimize mechanical advantage, and use as little effort as possible. Your sanctimonious appeal for the welfare of my students notwithstanding, believe it or not, some students actually WANT to know how to get the most out of their instrument, and if you are not using proper left hand technique, you are leaving untapped potential on your fret board. If you feel you have reached the apex of your technique, congratulations to you, but that is not the case with myself or my students. There is a cut and dry answer how to get the most work done with the least amount of effort with your left hand, you don't see the value in that, nothing more I can do for you in that regard.

I made no appeal for your students. They do have my sympathies if this is how you teach them. You remind me why I taught myself. Too many teachers with good intentions and loads of baggage. You are correct about one thing, based on the conversation here...there is nothing you can do for me

You're still going on and on about getting the most work done with no proof as to why the same work can't be accomplished while not doing what you "think" is necessary. I've made no claim of being at an apex, I'm still learning. The funniest thing is, you clearly seem to think that you can't learn something that you clearly don't have a handle on. Work on yourself, I'm more than fine without you. I'm just trying to offer a counterpoint to one more rant that people might mistakenly take to heart without thinking.

Here is a video of 3 guys who use low action, and use proper left hand technique, too.

Well that settles it... you've offered Youtube proof of a universal truth.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

So use physics to shoot that fact down.

Ok!

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Ok!

Nice demo. Nothing I didn't expect. No physics though, but none really needed.

In fretless space they can't hear you buzz.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Nice demo. Nothing I didn't expect. No physics though, but none really needed.

In fretless space they can't hear you buzz.

Yes, no calculations were involved, I agree it's a merely a demo of physical forces at work

 

[Nickweissmusic]

In fretless space they can't hear you buzz.

It's been renamed "mwah"

 

[David Sutkin]

It's between that Warmoth and this Warwick: RB Streamer NT 4 Natural Transparent High Polish Fretless Active Pickups & Electronics, Free Shippin

DONE, bought the Warmoth .... PSYCHED!!!

 

[bucephylus]

So...... now that I've been pleasantly persuaded to get my hands on a un-lined fretless, can I get some feedback on what you think of this:

Smoking Warmoth Fretless Jazz Bass w Sweet Fender HSC

I've been leaning towards a Warwick fretless actually as I really dig my Corvette but I've seen this posting up on Reverb for awhile now and she looks like a real beauty and relatively reasonable. In fact I have the identical QMT burst look on my American dlx J bass. This would make a great twin ... Unfortunately the cat who owns it doesn't play it in the video he added to the listing. I just don't understand that and it makes me a bit leary. To this day I'm still never 100% comfortable buying an axe I can't play or at least hear first.....even though I do it anyway while keeping my fingers crossed and asking a f*ck ton of questions

Can I get some thoughts on what might be the "Pro's and cons" of this bass?

The bass looks fine. But, the details of the Warmoth necks can have some influence on the feel and resonance of the instrument, IME. The standard construction used to include two very substantial steel stiffening bars in the construction. They certainly worked. A little too well, IME; in the sense that they tended to be so stiff that the neck lost some of it's resonance. More recently, Warmoth began making the necks with graphite bars as an option; and I believe those provide a more familiar feel.

As with any bass, best to try before you buy.

Edit: oops, I see you proceeded. Hopefully the neck works for you.

 

[David Sutkin]

I'm hoping she plays beautifully. The seller posted a 30 minute EXTREMELY granular breakdown of the bass including audio on YouTube. That gave me some comfort in buying blind AND there's a 14 day return policy so.... if the tones or playability are not ideal to me, on to the next one.

 

[David Sutkin]

She should also look pretty great next to her sister

 

[big_fundamental]

DONE, bought the Warmoth .... PSYCHED!!!

"Like" was insufficient. Very cool looking Bass! The Warmoth necks IMHO with steel rods sound great, as long as the instrument is balanced while playing. There will be a new P Bass with Warmoth body + neck coming together in my house soon.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Ok!

Okay indeed.

Seriously, do you even understand the blatant problem with your "proof"? I'm betting "Nope".

 

[Brad Johnson]

Show of hands... who frets each note with a capo?

This is definitely cheaper than cable.

 

[Brad Johnson]

DONE, bought the Warmoth .... PSYCHED!!!

View attachment 1119622

Congrats. How's the setup?

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Show of hands... who frets each note with a capo?

This is definitely cheaper than cable.

The point is the capo supplies a constant, set amount of pressure... and it works better the closer you get to the fret, since... the closer you get to the fret, the less pressure you need.

I fail to see your point, please elaborate.