Define "right place". If talking about the center of the pad of your finger, it never is. Given that your bass is very carefully intonated like a fretted bass, and you're shooting for correct notes on the tempered scale (which, by the way, is not absolutely in tune, but rather "equally out of tune on every note") like the rest of the band, your center of your finger will be slightly behind the fret. The "in-tune" is not at the center of the pad of your finger, it is where the string and your finger depart. Which is *pretty much* on the line/fret marker. Play a correctly intonated lined fretless for a while, and you'll start to see a pattern. That said, the final adjustment for correct intonation will still be up to your ear. That does not change whether you play lined or unlined.
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Fretless playing question ...
- Thread starter David Sutkin
- Start date
Define "right place". If talking about the center of the pad of your finger, it never is. Given that your bass is very carefully intonated like a fretted bass, and you're shooting for correct notes on the tempered scale (which, by the way, is not absolutely in tune, but rather "equally out of tune on every note") like the rest of the band, your center of your finger will be slightly behind the fret. The "in-tune" is not at the center of the pad of your finger, it is where the string and your finger depart. Which is *pretty much* on the line/fret marker. Play a correctly intonated lined fretless for a while, and you'll start to see a pattern. That said, the final adjustment for correct intonation will still be up to your ear. That does not change whether you play lined or unlined.
I am a pro. There is no single correct way to play electric bass. That is silly. I'm not surprised that someone here would think that and worse, try to pass it off as fact.
You don't have to get the most anything done with the least amount of effort. That is an option. To think it's the only way to accomplish something is silly. But you seem stuck on this for likely obvious reasons.
Watch pros who don't adhere to your rules and get a clue as to the automatic detriment you seem to think is unavoidable. This siliness about getting the "most" anything is telling. No extreme is mandatory when playing the bass. You don't have to use the most or least effort, etc. to get desirable results... it pushing some into obsessing over how they're playing instead of what they're playing. I've sat with players IRL who strive to play practically over the fret, watch me and ask me why I don't. I ask how is my tone. If there's no problem, what would I be fixing by fretting like they do?
Nothing
James Jameson played with high action and one plucking finger. Care to put your results up against his? From what I recall Will Lee prefers high action. I hate it. So Will is wrong for not using the least amount of effort? That's how nonsensical some of this is and I'd bet physics won't co-sign on your position.
With the way I set up my basses (I personally set up my basses), they do not require the amount of force most bassists use to fret. I don't have to press the string hard enough to push it out of tune. Your inability to even consider the possibility that your way is not the only way, considering that you teach... hopefully your students have open enough minds to figure some things out for themselves. Because your rigidity is limiting IMO IME.
Google that.
This reminds me of when someone posted an isolated Chris Squire track and a bass player asked "Can't he play cleanly?"
Sadly, he had no clue that he was completely missing the point.
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Looking at the finger placement in the pic---- the notes will likely be slightly out of tune.
And no doubt Mr Harrison's list of credits would be much shorter than it is had that been the case...
And for 35 years, mine have gone where the notes are, not where the lines are.
My point in posting it was to illustrate to someone new to fretless how one might use the lines as an approximation, not an absolute. In other words, a starting point...
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For most music styles, a little off on a fretless doesn't matter, same as a fretted which is often a bit off. A lot off does matter. Guitars, pianos, saxophones, they're all going to be a bit different intonation in different ranges.
Classic orchestra or ensembles it matters why more, as you are probably playing in a section of fretless instruments, close harmonies or unison, long notes, not much room for error there. For the sake of argument same in a choir, as you have fretless vocal chords!
Classic orchestra or ensembles it matters why more, as you are probably playing in a section of fretless instruments, close harmonies or unison, long notes, not much room for error there. For the sake of argument same in a choir, as you have fretless vocal chords!
I'm not a pro. I'm not even good. But I figured that there was no one correct way.I am a pro. There is no single correct way to play electric bass. That is silly. I'm not surprised that someone here would think that and worse, try to pass it off as fact.
You don't have to get the most anything done with the least amount of effort. That is an option. To think it's the only way to accomplish something is silly. But you seem stuck on this for likely obvious reasons.
Watch pros who don't adhere to your rules and get a clue as to the automatic detriment you seem to think is unavoidable. This siliness about getting the "most" anything is telling. No extreme is mandatory when playing the bass. You don't have to use the most or least effort, etc. to get desirable results... it pushing some into obsessing over how they're playing instead of what they're playing. I've sat with players IRL who strive to play practically over the fret, watch me and ask me why I don't. I ask how is my tone. If there's no problem, what would I be fixing by fretting like they do?
Nothing
James Jameson played with high action and one plucking finger. Care to put your results up against his? From what I recall Will Lee prefers high action. I hate it. So Will is wrong for not using the least amount of effort? That's how nonsensical some of this is and I'd bet physics won't co-sign on your position.
With the way I set up my basses (I personally set up my basses), they do not require the amount of force most bassists use to fret. I don't have to press the string hard enough to push it out of tune. Your inability to even consider the possibility that your way is not the only way, considering that you teach... hopefully your students have open enough minds to figure some things out for themselves. Because your rigidity is limiting IMO IME.
Google that.
This reminds me of when someone posted an isolated Chris Squire track and a bass player asked "Can't he play cleanly?"
Sadly, he had no clue that he was completely missing the point.
Hence my question. "What if the right place isn't exactly in the right place?"
I have always and will always prefer an unlined. I learned to play on DB so....
Lines are just visual annoyances to me. Anyone trying to learn fretless, there are some great videos on YouTube about finger position on DB and they are just as applicable to an electric fretless
Lines are just visual annoyances to me. Anyone trying to learn fretless, there are some great videos on YouTube about finger position on DB and they are just as applicable to an electric fretless
Where is this written in stone to be "the correct way"? ....
I am a pro. There is no single correct way to play electric bass. That is silly. I'm not surprised that someone here would think that and worse, try to pass it off as fact.
You don't have to get the most anything done with the least amount of effort. That is an option. To think it's the only way to accomplish something is silly. But you seem stuck on this for likely obvious reasons.
Watch pros who don't adhere to your rules and get a clue as to the automatic detriment you seem to think is unavoidable. This siliness about getting the "most" anything is telling. No extreme is mandatory when playing the bass. You don't have to use the most or least effort, etc. to get desirable results... it pushing some into obsessing over how they're playing instead of what they're playing. I've sat with players IRL who strive to play practically over the fret, watch me and ask me why I don't. I ask how is my tone. If there's no problem, what would I be fixing by fretting like they do?
Nothing
James Jameson played with high action and one plucking finger. Care to put your results up against his? From what I recall Will Lee prefers high action. I hate it. So Will is wrong for not using the least amount of effort? That's how nonsensical some of this is and I'd bet physics won't co-sign on your position.
With the way I set up my basses (I personally set up my basses), they do not require the amount of force most bassists use to fret. I don't have to press the string hard enough to push it out of tune. Your inability to even consider the possibility that your way is not the only way, considering that you teach... hopefully your students have open enough minds to figure some things out for themselves. Because your rigidity is limiting IMO IME.
Google that.
This reminds me of when someone posted an isolated Chris Squire track and a bass player asked "Can't he play cleanly?"
Sadly, he had no clue that he was completely missing the point.
Possibly one of the best posts in this thread.
I did have to look him up, because honestly I've never even heard his name mentioned on talkbass. Certainly I've never seen his name on any list of "world's top fretless bassists." But I did visit his website, and enjoyed the music. He seems like a regionally successful, multi-talented player/songwriter/composer/producer. Which raises the question: How can such a talented musician have such awkward technique on the fretless? Here are my thoughts:
1. Maybe that's not his hand in the photos. Not every bare butt you see on screen is the movie star's; sometimes it is a body double. When I worked in publishing, there were definitely moments like, "hey, we have a blank half page in the layout; let's snap a photo of someone's hand." Not claiming it is stunt hands in these photos, but it is certainly a possibility.
2. I've written an instructional book, and let me tell you, there is a strong tempation (and often pressure from the publisher) to include certain "correct" or "advanced" techniques, even if that is not actually the way I myself play out on a gig. For example, I am not generally a "one finger per fret" player, but I tabbed it out that way in my book, because I felt it was what I was "supposed to do."
3. The book was published in 1983. That was the height of the Jaco era when fretless bass was just bursting into the scene. Maybe Clive Harrison's fretless technique has evolved some in the past 34 years, and he would give different lessons if you were his student today?
4. Sometimes great musicians have less than great technique.
Anyway, if you want to get good at fretless, my advice is to get a good teacher, and study ALL the great players (Jaco, Manring, Pino, etc.) not just one photo in a book from 1983. Take the best from each player and combine it all to form your own personal style.
My advice is that if you want to get good at fretless, play fretless as often as possible. Play whatever things or songs you'd play on fretted on fretless. Don't stop when it gets difficult or frustrating. If you have the desire to get better, you may find like I did that you don't need a teacher. Not all teachers provide forward movement.
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I did have to look him up, because honestly I've never even heard his name mentioned on talkbass. Certainly I've never seen his name on any list of "world's top fretless bassists." But I did visit his website, and enjoyed the music. He seems like a regionally successful, multi-talented player/songwriter/composer/producer. Which raises the question: How can such a talented musician have such awkward technique on the fretless? Here are my thoughts:
1. Maybe that's not his hand in the photos. Not every bare butt you see on screen is the movie star's; sometimes it is a body double. When I worked in publishing, there were definitely moments like, "hey, we have a blank half page in the layout; let's snap a photo of someone's hand." Not claiming it is stunt hands in these photos, but it is certainly a possibility.
2. I've written an instructional book, and let me tell you, there is a strong tempation (and often pressure from the publisher) to include certain "correct" or "advanced" techniques, even if that is not actually the way I myself play out on a gig. For example, I am not generally a "one finger per fret" player, but I tabbed it out that way in my boom, because I felt it was what I was "supposed to do."
3. The book was published in 1983. That was the height of the Jaco era when fretless bass was just bursting into the scene. Maybe Clive Harrison's fretless technique has evolved some in the past 34 years, and he would give different lessons if you were his student today?
4. Sometimes great musicians have less than great technique.
Anyway, if you want to get good at fretless, my advice is to get a good teacher, and study ALL the great players (Jaco, Manring, Piano, etc.) not just one photo in a book from 1983. Take the best from each player and combine it all to form your own personal style.
I'm pretty confident it's his hand as it's the same bass as on the cover of the book that I've had since 1985, but yeah I suppose that's possible. It's certainly posed for the pic rather than a still from actual play, as was the pic of mine later. Also, I suspect the last time I looked at that pic was on opening the book, going 'yeah, I get it' and not looking back.
I also worked through material from Herb Mickman, Rick Laird and the Chuck Rainey series, so quite a good range of sources, combined with classical theory and wearing out numerous styli. So your advice to beginners is indeed good - immersion therapy...
...
2. I've written an instructional book, and let me tell you, there is a strong tempation (and often pressure from the publisher) to include certain "correct" or "advanced" techniques, even if that is not actually the way I myself play out on a gig. For example, I am not generally a "one finger per fret" player, but I tabbed it out that way in my book, because I felt it was what I was "supposed to do."
...
4. Sometimes great musicians have less than great technique.
.... Take the best from each player and combine it all to form your own personal style.
Just re-read your post and these are really great points.
I learned 1 finger per, then simadl, and the concepts of forwards and backwards extensions, shifting, etc, and also classical Cello techniques for vibrato. These days I mix it up at will, without really thinking too much. Each has pros and cons, which need to be understood. No self-respecting teacher would present them all at the same time - better, IMO, to lead the student on a journey of discovery, the point of which is to be able to call on the option appropriate to the situation.
YMMV.
It can be alot of fun. I prefer it over fretted most times. The magnifying glass that it puts on what you do can initially be daunting but that's true with many worthwhile endeavors.
Give it a shot, you might find like many that the fretting over where to put your fingers is pretty easy to sort out. You have to be able to hear yourself in whatever context you're playing in. Then your brain will tell you whether or not you're on point or need to adjust. You'll learn to recognize whether you're sharp or flat and proceed from there.
A bonus is that the work pays off and you'll likely mystify others who haven't tried what you did. And you'll know that it wasn't that hard after all.
Play the way you like---- there's not cast in stone way, but there is good technique on any instrument. Sting, and Geddy Lee play with 3 fingers on their left hand and still get it done--sorry if I offended you.
I also in the camp that prefer unlined fretless even though the learning curve may be harder for some depending on your technic.
I believe that with a fretless bass it is counter intuitive to buy a cheapo before going to the one you really want as a training wheel. When I got my first fretless I didn't go cheap. I bought a 1500$ bass. I knew the instrument wouldn't hinder my progress nor my ability to play in tune it would inspire me to do better and be happy with it.
Pretty much what Les Claypool did too. He said numerous time that he bought a fretless 6 Carl Thompson and just go with it.
And while I'm writting this I think that your reason for going fretless is more important than anything.
I believe that with a fretless bass it is counter intuitive to buy a cheapo before going to the one you really want as a training wheel. When I got my first fretless I didn't go cheap. I bought a 1500$ bass. I knew the instrument wouldn't hinder my progress nor my ability to play in tune it would inspire me to do better and be happy with it.
Pretty much what Les Claypool did too. He said numerous time that he bought a fretless 6 Carl Thompson and just go with it.
And while I'm writting this I think that your reason for going fretless is more important than anything.
