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frustrated with tone chasing
- Thread starter sonicnuance
- Start date
I have not tried to see how long the OP has been playing, but I can offer something from 25 years' experience: it ultimately doesn't matter.
It is sad to say this but true. A shockingly large number of people have no idea what the instrument in your hand sounds like. I was vividly reminded of this once when my drummer's GF commented that she had no idea what the role of the bass in the band was until I was late to practice one day and she heard what it sounded like with me missing. My wife had no concept of what the bass was until she met me . . . now she listens for the sounds of Rickenbackers and Jazz and Wal and Spector basses and minutely tears them apart right alongside me.
You also might just need to get that tone from your fingers and don't yet have the experience to do so. I don't know how long you've been playing so forgive my presumption.
Play to get the tone that makes you happy, and forget about what anyone else hears. Chances are, they haven't a clue whether you've got the perfect tone or not. But they WILL be able to tell if you are not happy with what you're doing. I have discovered of all the things people key off in my performence, it is my mood they care about the most. The rest of it is just window dressing.
And if you really think you are missing some vital aspect of your live tone, stick a compressor on your sound. It will be easier to tune it if you can flatten the dynamic range a bit. Bass has a ridiculous amount of dynamic variation. I didn't use compression until about 3 years ago, and now I wonder how I did without it.
It is sad to say this but true. A shockingly large number of people have no idea what the instrument in your hand sounds like. I was vividly reminded of this once when my drummer's GF commented that she had no idea what the role of the bass in the band was until I was late to practice one day and she heard what it sounded like with me missing. My wife had no concept of what the bass was until she met me . . . now she listens for the sounds of Rickenbackers and Jazz and Wal and Spector basses and minutely tears them apart right alongside me.
You also might just need to get that tone from your fingers and don't yet have the experience to do so. I don't know how long you've been playing so forgive my presumption.
Play to get the tone that makes you happy, and forget about what anyone else hears. Chances are, they haven't a clue whether you've got the perfect tone or not. But they WILL be able to tell if you are not happy with what you're doing. I have discovered of all the things people key off in my performence, it is my mood they care about the most. The rest of it is just window dressing.
And if you really think you are missing some vital aspect of your live tone, stick a compressor on your sound. It will be easier to tune it if you can flatten the dynamic range a bit. Bass has a ridiculous amount of dynamic variation. I didn't use compression until about 3 years ago, and now I wonder how I did without it.
I am going to avoid them. I have tried them in the past and am out all kinds of time and money. No one even noticed when I switched. I went from a Sadowsky/Lakland/Modulus to a MIM Jazz or something (I don't even remember) and no one knew - not even by the looks. Why am I wasting my money on $3,000 basses when a $300 bass gets the same attention - or lack of attention. When no one notices anyway, that's when I think about getting a Squier or 2 and call it good.
As far players I want to copy:
Geddy Lee for my rock/cover stuff. I had a GL Jazz, should have kept it as it sounded great but I convinced myself that I must have a 5 string.
Nathan East/Jimmy Haslip for my jazz stuff. I have a Yamaha BB605 with Bartolini electronics that works OK but I'm not liking the "active" sound lately. I love the sound of passive jazz basses right now.
My amp is a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0-12T combo which is really nice, but lacking a little as a stand alone when I want a little more full spectrum sound. I'm waiting to try a GB Uber Quad with a 9.0 head.
Good post, although one shouldn't be afraid of boutiques, as long one can afford to purchase one. You don't have to lose money on a boutique purchase - simply do your research and find a good deal. You should have no trouble getting your money back out of it if you "buy smart." Just don't go into serious debt to purchase... it's not a good deal if you can't afford it to begin with.
On thieving ideas, I was blown away by Victor when I first heard him back in '96-'97. When I first popped into 3rd and Lindsley a few years later and saw Regi play it all made sense.
How about a Fender 5-string JB then - I.e. the American Standard JB 5 is about $1400 and strikes me as a good deal for the money for a USA 5-string Jazz. I mean, I'm sure this isn't an original idea and you've already thought of this,
, but if the JB sound is what you're after in a 5string version, that might be the way to go?For passive, just take the batteries out of it
. That's how I run my Bunny - the active switch (on the vol knob) now makes a perfect poor-man's mute switch.LS
Agreed on going into debt for a bass. Or only unless you can pay off the McGuido Bros. in a reasonable amount of time before you have to start running drugs and cigarettes for them to keep your kneecaps.
There've been lots of boutique threads that have gone nowhere so I'll avoid making any specific statements in that regard. As a Carvin fanatic, I consider the Carvin a kind of mass-produced boutique - when it finally does come to your house and you open the case, you can't believe what's in there only cost 1100 to 1300....
LS
You get the tone you hear in your head, then send it to the board where the soudman does what he wants with it and all your had work is for naught.
How about a Fender 5-string JB then - I.e. the American Standard JB 5 is about $1400 and strikes me as a good deal for the money for a USA 5-string Jazz. I mean, I'm sure this isn't an original idea and you've already thought of this,
For passive, just take the batteries out of it
LS
I have thought about a Fender American Standard 5 string. Like you say, for a passive jazz tone in a 5 string, that seems the logical choice - especially as I need a 34" scale as well, which eliminates a lot of basses.
I have tried running my Yamaha in passive/bypass mode, but it isn't the same.
I'm also debating/struggling with the 4 vs. 5 thing. I don't really NEED a low B string except for a couple and even then it's just because that's how they were recorded. I've tried 4's but always talk myself out of them, even though no one in the bands care and they have loved the tones - especially the Geddy Lee I had for a couple weeks.
Taking the batteries out and using the active/passive as a mute is pretty clever.
Do you record your band's gigs?
Because I find getting things dead nuts is impossible from the stage when you consider the bass sounds different if you move 2 feet in any direction.
I record practically all our gigs with an open air digital recorder (Edirol), which I place near the soundboard.
That way I can hear what it sounds like at a distance from the stage an out in front of the sound system, which is where the people are.
I gauge pretty much everything off those recordings (tones, performance, soundman).
Because I find getting things dead nuts is impossible from the stage when you consider the bass sounds different if you move 2 feet in any direction.
I record practically all our gigs with an open air digital recorder (Edirol), which I place near the soundboard.
That way I can hear what it sounds like at a distance from the stage an out in front of the sound system, which is where the people are.
I gauge pretty much everything off those recordings (tones, performance, soundman).
- Jun 28, 2005
- 1,015
- 18
- 87
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- Builder,mcdcustomguitars
My main concern is how I sound to the audience which is impossible to know when you are on stage in the middle of the band. I would work off of the recordings and make adjustment from that sound.
- Aug 30, 2003
- 1,479
- 457
- Disclosures
- Engineer & Owner, Sonic Nuance Electronics
this may be the best thread I've ever started in terms of helping me out and getting a productive dialog going
to answer a few questions
1) I've played bass for 25 years
2) We do record our gigs and practices and I take notes of what I like and don't like
3) I have nice in ear monitors with custom molds, but I still think they are severely lacking in terms of getting a flat response and bass. They are Bose SCL5s I think
4) I care how the bass sounds in the mix to the audience NOT stand alone at home... stand alone I like scooping. I more or less go for an inverse frown when playing with the band. The closest I can get to hearing what the audience is so far has been listening to the recordings... unfortunately. I would love to play while sitting in the audience sometime.
5) I focus on the Bongo... the Pbass is a backup
to answer a few questions
1) I've played bass for 25 years
2) We do record our gigs and practices and I take notes of what I like and don't like
3) I have nice in ear monitors with custom molds, but I still think they are severely lacking in terms of getting a flat response and bass. They are Bose SCL5s I think
4) I care how the bass sounds in the mix to the audience NOT stand alone at home... stand alone I like scooping. I more or less go for an inverse frown when playing with the band. The closest I can get to hearing what the audience is so far has been listening to the recordings... unfortunately. I would love to play while sitting in the audience sometime.
5) I focus on the Bongo... the Pbass is a backup
I have not read this entire thread, so if this has been mentioned before, forgive me. But the OP mentioned that he is a constant tweaker, ie; constantly fiddling with tone controls and looking for that last little bit of tone.
I think this is unavoidable, especially in a live situation. What I mean is this.
Even if you found the perfect gear, and the perfect settings for that gear, the minute you change venue, it all goes out the window and you're back to square one. Where you play has a huge influence on how you sound, no matter what gear you're using, or how much money you spend on it. If you're not constantly listening to how the venue you're in sounds, and compensating for that, your gear is inevitably going to come up short, and you'll never really be satisfied with it. Period. MHO.
I think this is unavoidable, especially in a live situation. What I mean is this.
Even if you found the perfect gear, and the perfect settings for that gear, the minute you change venue, it all goes out the window and you're back to square one. Where you play has a huge influence on how you sound, no matter what gear you're using, or how much money you spend on it. If you're not constantly listening to how the venue you're in sounds, and compensating for that, your gear is inevitably going to come up short, and you'll never really be satisfied with it. Period. MHO.
This is true. Unfortunately, we do play in different venues so we will always be chasing tone. Kind of a catch 22.
Well, speaking of that, I did finally break down over the weekend and ordered a 4 string version of my Bunny (same options). My 6's only flaw is the wide neck which, due to aging and some permanent damage in the left wrist, I can only comfortably play seated and with the neck really hiked up under my chin.
So I'll be going back to the 4 string fulltime myself, tho mostly to keep from doing more damage to my already beatup wrist. The 6 I'll continue to use for those occasions where I do need extended range.
As for 5+ vs 4, the argument is that you can do everything on a 5+ that you can do on a 4. Ergonomics and instrument fit are really the only considerations that matter, IMO. The 5+'s usually hardly cost more than the 4's and most of the time sound the same if the electronics and overall design like the acoustic signature are kept the same too.
I pretty much buy that argument and am only going back to a 4 for anatomic reasons.
As for active vs passive, my Bunny sounds exactly the same in passive mode as it does with the preamp inline and the knobs centered. Into my GK amp, that is - that may vary with different amps that have different input impedance, etc. My G&L L2000, OTOH, gives a noticeably different tone (it also has no battery in it anymore). But the Carvin has a far better preamp in it than the G&L does, which probably accounts for the difference.
So if it were me, I'd vote for the 5-string JB since that seems to meet your tone needs based on how much you liked the GL....
LS
I guess it just depends on your endurance
. I finally gave up trying to get whoever the sound guy was at whatever place we played at to make the bass audible and clear. This was especially the case with my Ricks; I couldn't blame them too much because it's distressingly hard to get a clear but non-obliterating tone out of a Rick (unless it's outdoors, then it's a bit easier). But even during the brief period when I had the Stein, I always, in desperation, just brought my own amp with me and used it as my monitor. Sometimes it was off to the side facing me and the drummer so we could hear each other. Else it was just hopeless for me to ever be able to hear myself about 95% of the time. Once I was setup I just told the sound guy to do whatever he wanted (which was usually to eliminate me from the mix altogether).
So for me, an audible tone through an amp was pretty critical because often times that was my only option for being able to have anything resembling a mix. And, of course, if you're powering the gig yourself that becomes doubly important.
Yes, the venue will shape the tone, but you really need it sounding good from the start either way....
LS
+1. Be confident that your gear is great, and sounds it- seems like you agree 95%. Leave the 100% satisfaction bar and the pursuit of that last 5% to studio efforts where you'll have some tangeable sonic document and proof of your success of tone chasing or not.
Leave the dial and knob fiddling for soundchecks. As far as performance goes, it is distracting you from giving the show 100%, is surely frustrating for the soundperson who is actively trying to mix, monitor and maintain a good sound for the whole band, and might even be distracting to other members of the band who might actually be paying attention to what you are doing. Unless the room is terrible and needs drastic eq on either the bass and/or the amp, leave it alone.
Used to try and play with a guitar guy who was always chasing his "tone." Best equipment money can buy, excellent command of strings and chords, impeccable timing, but the constant harping on his "tone" just left us with no other option other than to find someone else with lesser skills and equipment who just wants to play and the crowd loves him.
You are chasing something that doesn't exist.
You are chasing something that doesn't exist.
I do have some hand issues - that's why Ive stayed with a 34" scale on any bass, and why I'm also debating going to a 4 full time. I'd probably hang on to my 5 (I wouldn't get more than $400 for it anyway) just in case I really NEEDED to have it for something.
A USA Standard Jazz V would probably be a good fit, although, if I went 4 I could just get a GL again....they are sweet basses.
