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fundamental frequncy cabinet design

#42
Cirk said:
Any thoughts on these? An array of them could be interesting, but expensive.

http://www.parts-express.com/clark-synthesis-tst329-gold-tactile-transducer-bass-shaker--300-862
Click to expand...

That's a shaker. Not really a speaker, more like a vibrator.

It's a mechanical device that vibrates or "shakes" at whatever low frequency. They put them in theater seats so the audience can feel the sensation of things like earthquakes and explosions. Some similar things are built into floormats for bass players to stand on so they can feel some bass in addition to what they hear through in-ear monitor earbuds.

Basically, if you had an audience of 200, you'd have to buy 200 of them so everybody could stand on one. Perhaps that's a stronger unit so you don't need one for each individual, but still, not a speaker......more of a "mechanical effect".
 
#43
Unfortunately, given the limitation of "practical size", there are no drivers that have the combination of low end extension and power handling that will get you to ~25Hz at typical gigging levels. With current speaker technology, the physics just don't work out.

I know it seems like maybe you could build a semi-small cabinet using a sub that is ineffecient but will handle lots of watts, but you just really can't clear that hurdle - you either have to give up and build a bigger cabinet, move up on your low end extension requirements, or move down on your loudness requirements. The inefficient subs just won't handle enough watts to get up to really high SPL.

It's an old saying, but it still holds true....
Loud, low, small - Pick two.

The cabs that tread on the very edge of these limitations are Acme, and properly built cabs using the Eminence 3015LF, and the previously mentioned Faital 15" driver.

Acmes go very low but are limited in overall volume compared to typical bass cabs. You could use a bunch of them, with appropriate wattage to each, to bring up your volume level. But then you're basically just breaking your load into multiple smaller pieces to get around the small cab limitation. Basically, a bunch of small cabs = one or two big cabs.

The others, the Eminence/Faital cabs, give up just enough low end to allow fairly high efficiency and fairly small size.
 
#44
R Baer said:
Regardless of the type of music, there's zero point to trying to reproduce frequencies this low for bass guitar in a band. All you will end up is a tone that is a nightmare for every room you play in. You won't be making many friends of the sound person at your gigs, that's for sure. True you need a very robust driver to handle the drop A tuning, but don't get hung up on actually trying to reproduce the fundamental frequency. Look into designs using an Eminence 3015LF driver for this kind of muscle. Another great driver for this is the Faital 15FH520. I built a prototype cab using this driver and it will handle just about anything you can throw at it. Give Don at LDS a call. I'm sure he could make you a 215 cab that would do the job just fine.
Click to expand...

If that's the one I'm thinking of, it's a monster....and smooth enough to about 2khz or slightly more it could be a one-way, LF solution for some.

I think there's an FH 520, and maybe a 500 and 510 or something. We might be talking about different models.
 
#45
I have already given example on some gear to look at. Forget the 3015LF - it is not good for really deep lows, regardless what box size and tuning you try. There are much better drivers for what you are looking for.
But remember, for every octave lower you go you need to increase the cabinet size EIGHTFOLD if you want to keep the system sensitivity. Or you could pick a high power, low sensitivty true sub driver and up the amplifiers instead.
Many hundreds of litres or thousands of watts, basically, if you want to get sub 30Hz performace at 125-ish dB with reliability. And remember, that sub would still only be on par with the SPL of a good 410 for the rest of the range, over 60Hz.
 
#46
Bruce Wane is doing it wrong - it is not "Loud, low, small - Pick two."
It is: "High sensitivity, low, small - pick any two." Car subs do 130 dB at 30Hz from a small cab, if fed a couple of thousands of Watts.

And again, there are woofers (and cabs) that do what the OP asks for.
 
#47
BruceWane said:
Unfortunately, given the limitation of "practical size", there are no drivers that have the combination of low end extension and power handling that will get you to ~25Hz at typical gigging levels. With current speaker technology, the physics just don't work out.

I know it seems like maybe you could build a semi-small cabinet using a sub that is ineffecient but will handle lots of watts, but you just really can't clear that hurdle - you either have to give up and build a bigger cabinet, move up on your low end extension requirements, or move down on your loudness requirements. The inefficient subs just won't handle enough watts to get up to really high SPL.

It's an old saying, but it still holds true....
Loud, low, small - Pick two.

The cabs that tread on the very edge of these limitations are Acme, and properly built cabs using the Eminence 3015LF, and the previously mentioned Faital 15" driver.

Acmes go very low but are limited in overall volume compared to typical bass cabs. You could use a bunch of them, with appropriate wattage to each, to bring up your volume level. But then you're basically just breaking your load into multiple smaller pieces to get around the small cab limitation. Basically, a bunch of small cabs = one or two big cabs.

The others, the Eminence/Faital cabs, give up just enough low end to allow fairly high efficiency and fairly small size.
Click to expand...

Yup...Acme's do reach honestly into the 30's. Unfortunately, with direct radiator cabs, extension does not increase with the use of multiples, only loudness does.
 
#49
AlexanderB said:
Bruce Wane is doing it wrong - it is not "Loud, low, small - Pick two."
It is: "High sensitivity, low, small - pick any two." Car subs do 130 dB at 30Hz from a small cab, if fed a couple of thousands of Watts.

And again, there are woofers (and cabs) that do what the OP asks for.
Click to expand...

Close but no cigar with the car analogy assuming we're talking about places one would normally play their bass....ie:...not in their car. 2000 watts from a 12 volt power source is fantasy. Depending on duty cycle, it's not that easy to achieve from a common 120 volt source. You Europeans get all the good stuff, like 240 volt supplies. :)

If you want to get the cabin gain you get in a car in even the smallest of gigging environments, we're back to loud, low, and can't fit through the door. :D
 
#50
So going back to the actual technical question, I believe (relatively) small and loud 25Hz is possible - but it's going to be heavy and grossly inefficient.

I can be be done with a multi-driver sealed subwoofer enclosure run at extremely high power, heavily EQ'd to offset the low frequency falloff. How expensive and how many drivers would depend on how loud the requirement is.
 
#53
Yeah---I remember those Sunfire subs. (Bob Carver) They went very low and were small. Built in amp. Also---didn't the Bag End Elfs go that low?. Like Swamp was saying---to be small,loud and low it would need to be active with lots of signal processing. Those servo woofers went really low if I remember.
 
#54
I think that our 12 sub cab is likely about 36 x 15 x 20. (ballpark---I only do the bass cabs and have limited knowledge about the PA subs). But---the 12 will go louder than conventionally loaded 15 sub---more like an 18. Still a big box, though.
 
#55
Mike Arnopol said:
Yeah---I remember those Sunfire subs. (Bob Carver) They went very low and were small. Built in amp. Also---didn't the Bag End Elfs go that low?. Like Swamp was saying---to be small,loud and low it would need to be active with lots of signal processing. Those servo woofers went really low if I remember.
Click to expand...

Yeah, both the Sunfire and Bag end used tiny sealed boxes heavily EQ'd. Carver's had arguably the first successful class D amp to help pull it off with a crapton of power, though by no means was it the fist class D.
 
#56
dmusic148 said:
That has nothing to do with anything. Doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter until you introduce boundaries. Like walls, and ceilings. When you make it out to some venues for music playing, you may notice a general theme of these.

Also, a lot of people are forgetting horns, big giant horns are the way to go low without being too silly with drivers, the silly goes into size.
 
#57
AlexanderB said:
The old "even big PAs are high passet at 40 Hz anyway" parroting gets more and more wrong every day.
Even mainstream pop like Justine Bieber has lots of 30-ish Hz energy today. So do installed dance club rigs, PAs on live electronic/dance oriented festivals, big DJ events and also some live pop/rock acts with "regular" bass players.
Tiesto who is a big name in the DJ scene has a technical rider including rigs that are really powerful at 30Hz and takes full use of them. His Music often runs below 20Hz at high levels.

The top brands in PA have plenty of loud and deep sub bass bins, although VERY expensive and cumbersome. But they kick out 130dB+ (some much more) in the 30Hz range and below. Speakers for big movie theatres is also a valid option.

Check out Bassmaxx, Danley sound labs, JBL, Meyer, Ciare - what the heck, even Peavey make some pretty decent sub woofer drivers nowadays...
Click to expand...

And how much does a real, well-designed dance club system cost? About 20x what a great bass rig costs. How many speakers in those dance club speakers? A lot more than a great bass rig. Best to compare apples to apples- a fixed installation system is far different from what's being discussed for a bass rig.
 
#58
Just for fun some straight 30Hz horns http://vincent.brient.free.fr/bass_horn.htm

systeme.jpg
 

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