Funk University Disappointment

[JAUQO III-X]

I have opinions. Lots of them. Several of them fight with one another daily - not a pretty sight, belive me.

I just don`t share all of them with the world, especially when I know that I`m no expert on a given subject. And when I do...

Discusion is about understanding other sides way of thinking, not replying with one-sentence-wisdom stuff that must feel pretty cool to write but doesn`t ofer much beyond that.In my opinion Jaquo refusal to give any insight into his opinion is quite annoying.



Please, read the second sentence again. I`ll call ignorance ("I don`t know much about it, but I don`t like it, so I don`t understand how would anyone, as cool as me, like it"), until proven otherwise.

Obviously you did not understand my post. And I did give insight into my opinion.

Let me help you(if possible).

I never said that I did not like European music. I stated that most European music is stiff(European music that predates funk).




Again,

why would some one who has a more livelier rhythm want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that they feel and know for a fact is stiff. That doesn't make since.


Now there are some people who would love to have a more livelier rhythmic aspect of a person or culture rhythmically watered down. History has taught some of that as to be fact(wouldn't want to get the white girls revved up).

Just think where funk would be today if all aspects of this lively genre was to rely on the concept of STIFF.

 

[Fliptrique]

You just can't admit that that is simply how you chose to interpret what clearly was not written.

I can. I admit - everything I`ve written about it is my own interpretation, wich might, or might not be correct.

If it`s not correct - please, enlighten me. I`ve been known to make mistakes before and know that discussion between people with considerable cultural differences can be confusing. Besides that the way I write is often far to serious and confrontational - for wich I apologise. I mean no harm, I`m just interested in other points of view - especially when I think i disagree.

Jaquo, could you please elaborate on your opinion? I do not really know what stands behind it. I`ve some of the stuff written here and listened to your playing and I just don`t get where your opinion comes from.

My guess is you don't understand as much as you seem to think you do, command of the language notwithstanding.

I`ll try to emulate a smart person a bit better next time. The thing is - I`m profoundly silly so it`s difficult to me, epsecialy in english :/



I do understand a lot about European guys trying to play Brazilian rythms and failing miserably, despite having considerable chops and experience. I`ve seen far too many "pseudo" funk and blues bands in my life - comapring to - let`s say - Here Come The Mummies their stiffnes is obvious. But that`s something compeletly different, than "original" european feel of time, it`s connection to melody etc. - it really a separate thing to me.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Have you listened to any recent R&B singers lately? Hell, have you heard Stevie Arrington? Tell me which melodic modes he's operating in?

Now cut that out Brad



Before George Clinton was known as one of the great contributors to the genre of funk. He was a doo wop singer and a staff songwriter for Motown.

 

[aborgman]

Let me ask you something: do you "debate" with your co-workers in this fashion?

Absolutely.

Would you tell your boss your "2nd grader" communicates better than he does?

No - because I wouldn't work for a boss that communicated more poorly than my second grader. I've always purposely chosen my places of employment with a strong nod toward technical competence and good communication in my supervisors.

Your wife? Your friends?

Would I engage in formal debate with my wife and friends? Sure - just about every day. Heck, the person I probably debate and argue with the most is 85 year old grandmother. She can argue like nobodies business, and she can support her points.

Just because you use the language "properly" and do not curse or overtly insult, does NOT mean that you are being respectful.

Constructive criticism is not in any way disrespectful.

Jauquo is an interesting guy, who seems to be interested in communicating what may be some rather interesting concepts. The problem is that he is failing miserably at communicating it to most people, and his communication style (both in this thread and elsewhere) seems to regularly engender confusion as to his intended points.

Now, if all he wants to do is say things - but not actually communicate - then he's good to go.

If he wants to actually achieve communication though - he needs to consider the tools he is using to do so.

Again, would you "debate" in this fashion with co-workers, friends or your spouse?

Absolutely.

Not only would I - I do it, pretty much every day.

 

[cnltb]

and again... maybe it would be a good idea to listen to some early european music before stating as fact that it is stiff.
Or maybe try to rephrase the statement you make?

How can you state something "is a fact" when all you are expressing is your own personal and subjective opinion, Nothing more than that.

I think that is what tens to annoy some.

and-it doesn't matter if anyone wants to be influenced by anything...they can't help being influenced I recon.

 

[NickyBass]

Well, I tried a few times to have a back and forth dialog, but it doesn't seem to be working. I have more important things to worry about. Brad, I'm not trying to claim ownership of anything. I'm not sure what gave you that impression. Jauqo, I have only heard a few moments of your music, but I can tell that you would probably be interested in 20th century classical composers if you gave them a chance.

I'll see you guys around the boards, and I'm sure we will have some good times...but this thread is junk.

 

[Fliptrique]

Just think where funk would be today if all aspects of this lively genre was to rely on the concept of STIFF.

Have you checked out some real, old flamenco stuff? Or real bulgarian folk music with all those crazy, frentic subdivisions? Or Jewish music played by Jews living in europe?

Please try, not stiff at all. Different than James Brown`s rythym section in their prime, obviously, but not worse. Sure, a lot of the pseudo, watered down folk is stiff as hell and unlisenable, but the exact same thing can be said about some of the less glorious pop-folk coming from the US.

I`ve seen some guys in Warsaw dressed up like Indian-American singing some utter jibberish to a midi playback and playing some sort of permamently out of tune flutes, but that doesn`t mean all American music sucks

 

[Brad Johnson]

I can. I admit - everything I`ve written about it is my own interpretation, wich might, or might not be correct.

If it`s not correct - please, enlighten me. I`ve been known to make mistakes before and know that discussion between people with considerable cultural differences can be confusing. Besides that the way I write is often far to serious and confrontational - for wich I apologise. I mean no harm, I`m just interested in other points of view - especially when I think i disagree.

Jaquo, could you please elaborate on your opinion? I do not really know what stands behind it. I`ve some of the stuff written here and listened to your playing and I just don`t get where your opinion comes from.



I`ll try to emulate a smart person a bit better next time. The thing is - I`m profoundly silly so it`s difficult to me, epsecialy in english :/



I do understand a lot about European guys trying to play Brazilian rythms and failing miserably, despite having considerable chops and experience. I`ve seen far too many "pseudo" funk and blues bands in my life - comapring to - let`s say - Here Come The Mummies their stiffnes is obvious. But that`s something compeletly different, than "original" european feel of time, it`s connection to melody etc. - it really a separate thing to me.

Again, this was about European music that predated funk.

So what original European feel of time are you referring to?

 

[aborgman]

Influence is a subset of origin.

No, it isn't.

If it were - all influences would be origins, and that is obviously false.

Origins are a subset of influence.

All of the true intelligent people I've met and known have been exceedingly humble and in general open to new interpretations and points of view.

I have no problem with introduction of a new interpretation to a discussion - as long as all members of the discussion agree and accept that. Communication requires agreement on terms, and that requires that terms not be changed willy-nilly within the framework of the argument.

Now ask yourself: does the dictionary define the language, or does language not grow and evolve, leading to new definitions and updated terms?

The dictionary doesn't define language - it standardizes it. Much in the same way that ANSI doesn't define the pound, but they standardize the measurement and usage thereof.

Standardization is necessary to foster compatibility.

Any cut-rate pseudo-intellectual can pass off an affected lack of understanding ("Thickness") as a means of feigning intellectual superiority. A true intellectual will gauge the intent of the speaker given the context of the discussion, and then respond accordingly.

Sure - given a belief in good faith action by the speaker and an ability to decipher the speaker. If the speaker is trying to modify the discussion as a way of "winning" (i.e. redefining terms in the middle of the discussion, changing the claims being argued, etc.) they aren't arguing in good faith, and if they are so unclear as to make their point of argumentation indeterminate - it's not inherent on the reader/listener to decipher their communication.

 

[Fliptrique]

I have only heard a few moments of your music, but I can tell that you would probably be interested in 20th century classical composers if you gave them a chance. .

and that just the tip of the iceberg

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well, I tried a few times to have a back and forth dialog, but it doesn't seem to be working. I have more important things to worry about. Brad, I'm not trying to claim ownership of anything. I'm not sure what gave you that impression. Jauqo, I have only heard a few moments of your music, but I can tell that you would probably be interested in 20th century classical composers if you gave them a chance.

I'll see you guys around the boards, and I'm sure we will have some good times...but this thread is junk.

I didn't say you specifically were trying to claim ownership... so I don't get the counter you just offered. The problem is that some are referring to either side as if they were a monolithic voice.

See ya around.

 

[aborgman]

That's my problem with much of the "logic" espoused in this thread. The idea is that nothing can come about that goes in a new direction, owing little to it's timeline predecessors. New thinking if you will. According to this thread, it doesn't happen.

New thinking that doesn't build on old thinking is vanishingly rare if existent at all.

"Bernard of Chartres used to say that we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size."

- John of Salisbury, Metalogicon

'The wisest of the philosophers asked: "We admit that our predecessors were wiser than we. At the same time we criticize their comments, often rejecting them and claiming that the truth rests with us. How is this possible?" The wise philosopher responded: "Who sees further a dwarf or a giant? Surely a giant for his eyes are situated at a higher level than those of the dwarf. But if the dwarf is placed on the shoulders of the giant who sees further? ... So too we are dwarfs astride the shoulders of giants. We master their wisdom and move beyond it. Due to their wisdom we grow wise and are able to say all that we say, but not because we are greater than they."'

- Isaiah di Trani

 

[Fliptrique]

So what original European feel of time are you referring to?

Chopin (played by someone who knows what he`s doing) predates funk, unless I missed something I`ve listed some other stuff in the post above yours. All of it was played way before funk.

Is it funky? No. Is it stiff - in my opinion - no, it`s not.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Have you checked out some real, old flamenco stuff? Or real bulgarian folk music with all those crazy, frentic subdivisions? Or Jewish music played by Jews living in europe?

That predated funk and would've been somewhat available here?

He wasn't talking about European music now.

Please try, not stiff at all. Different than James Brown`s rythym section in their prime, obviously, but not worse. Sure, a lot of the pseudo, watered down folk is stiff as hell and unlisenable, but the exact same thing can be said about some of the less glorious pop-folk coming from the US.

I can almost guarantee you won't get a debate on that.

I`ve seen some guys in Warsaw dressed up like Indian-American singing some utter jibberish to a midi playback and playing some sort of permamently out of tune flutes, but that doesn`t mean all American music sucks

 

[aborgman]

Obviously you did not understand my post.

Have you noticed that this is an ongoing problem that the great majority of people reading your posts have? Over and over and over again?

Ever think there might be a reason for that?

 

[Brad Johnson]

New thinking that doesn't build on old thinking is vanishingly rare if existent at all.

It would need to be impossible.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Have you noticed that this is an ongoing problem that the great majority of people reading your posts have? Over and over and over again?

Ever think there might be a reason for that?

Sure... and it couldn't possibly be the reader.


Ever notice how many come into just about any thread he's posting in with baggage? I have.


Why do some people not have the same difficulty? if they can understand him, what does that say about the others?

 

[NickyBass]

I didn't say you specifically were trying to claim ownership... so I don't get the counter you just offered. The problem is that some are referring to either side as if they were a monolithic voice.

See ya around.

You made a comment about giving credit to The Man--and said 'that's what this is all about.' Something like that. I don't have the desire to go back and multi-quote you.

But if you think that is what I am about, then you've misjudged me. I'm not sweating it. If that is your angle, I can totally appreciate that---and I would never claim to understand what other races and cultures have had to contend with throughout the years in order to create their music. I am studying Cuban music, and I can understand why some guys hold it so close to their hearts. The political, social and economic issues that they had to endure to create their music is intense. My intention for this thread was the history of music, nothing more, nothing less.

And seriously Jauqo, check out some Bartok for crying out loud.

 

[aborgman]

It would need to be impossible.

I beleive it is impossible in todays day and age for anyone raised by other humans within the framework of a civilization.

People like that feral girl raised by dogs? Yeah, maybe.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Chopin (played by someone who knows what he`s doing) predates funk, unless I missed something I`ve listed some other stuff in the post above yours. All of it was played way before funk.

Is it funky? No. Is it stiff - in my opinion - no, it`s not.

That's one. Need a few more to counter "most".