Funk University Disappointment

[cnltb]

This is the most boring thread ive ever seen. I couldn't even read it all it was so boring.

Who wants to see a negative thread about Bootsy anyway. Who started this stupid thread. It should be closed down. Its totally pointless

Erase it. Like it never happened

Why are you moderators letting this go on ?

Bootsy is in the hall of fame, for crying out loud. Have some respect for the man. Sheeeesh

You find it boring?
Fine.
Don't read it then,don't post in it (if you do post again, make it interesting, yes? ).
Easy.

 

[NickyBass]

It does not have to be that direct. I did not say that. In the meantime many are perfectly satisfied with it being as indirect as scales. And ignoring the rest of the music simultaneously.

When Giant Steps came out, it was a game changer for jazz. It was huge. Do you know where that came from? It came from Coltrane studying Bartok's Concierto for Orchestra and Ravel's Bolero. Those changes came from 20th century European classical music. Directly. If you chose not to study classical music, that's fine, but alot of the greatest musicians in the world have studied it pretty intensly. (this is just one example.)

As far as stiffness and feel, give it a rest. Like I said, we already determined that the rhythmic roots of funk and jazz and salsa and R&B etc are from Africa. That is (almost?) impossible to dispute.

If you are interested in discussing European influence, then lets please turn to their main contribution---which is harmony. Otherwise, I don't see much merit in discussing who has better 'feel.'

 

[Brad Johnson]

When Giant Steps came out, it was a game changer for jazz. It was huge. Do you know where that came from? It came from Coltrane studying Bartok's Concierto for Orchestra and Ravel's Bolero. Those changes came from 20th century European classical music. Directly. If you chose not to study classical music, that's fine, but alot of the greatest musicians in the world have studied it pretty intensly. (this is just one example.)

Was James Brown one of them?

As far as stiffness and feel, give it a rest. Like I said, we already determined that the rhythmic roots of funk and jazz and salsa and R&B etc are from Africa. That is (almost?) impossible to dispute.

If you are interested in discussing European influence, then lets please turn to their main contribution---which is harmony. Otherwise, I don't see much merit in discussing who has better 'feel.'

Then feel free to stop discussing it. Or anything else for that matter. You win.

 

[NickyBass]

Obviously Funk is way too hard to stick with...

Hey Brad, before you came into this (tangent) discussion, we were talking about blues as it relates to European music. So, you're the one who changed it to funk.

I also remember you asking about Billie Holiday....

Besides, funk didn't just happen. When I look at African American music, I like to look at it on a timeline. Everything was influenced by everything that came before it.

Let's discuss it, instead of trying to 'one up' each other.

You win.

I'm not trying to 'win' anything here. I'm trying to be open minded and have a dialog. I invite a debate, not for the point of 'winning,' but for the point of exploring.

 

[NickyBass]

Was James Brown one of them?

Probably not.

 

[Fliptrique]

One man's "stiff"...


Maybe you don't know what he meant.

That`s always a possibility, but it works both ways.

All forms of musical expression vary tremendously betwen cultures, despite sharing many of the same building blocks. And - that`s my point against Jaquo broad and authoritative statement - some stuff is not obvious and easy to understand for a begginer. Just because you don`t like it or don`t understand, it doesn`t make it any worse from stuff you dig and understand.

If you haven`t been exposed to european folk music all your life I don`t really think you can be regarded as an any authority on the subject. 200 cd`s and some youtube videos just don`t cut it.

I know quite a bit about your musical culture, speak your language way better than you speak mine, but I`d never consider myself qualified enough to talk about it the way Jaquo does about European music. I just don`t know enough about it. If Jaquo has some deep understanding of european rythms - I`d like to see where does that kowledge come from. That`s all.

 

[NickyBass]

I guess the debate comes down to this: Without European instruments, song forms, scales and harmony, would funk still exist? Would funk music have evolved without any 'outside' influences? I imagine that it would have at some point. I don't know what it would sound like--or what tonalities would be used---but I'm sure it would still be funky. The bottom line, though, is this -- it would have sounded different. And that is why I say that there is some European influence on funk music.

It isn't a micro thing where you can pick two random composers/players and compare them. It is a global thing. Thousands of years of music history have shaped the music that we hear today.

Can I pinpoint the exact influence of Gregorian chant on James Brown's music? No, not at all. But, I can look at music as a whole and know that every peice and every era has shaped the sounds of American music.

 

[Fliptrique]

Obviously. Most of the stuff I listen to is influenced by other cultures, yet often reinterpreted and evolved long enough to become separate. And that`s a cool thing.

 

[NickyBass]

If you haven`t been exposed to european folk music all your life I don`t really think you can be regarded as an any authority on the subject.

Good point. Feel is relative to the style. A funk player may not be able to cop the authentic feel of Polish folk music, and vice versa. That is why I was trying to focus more on harmonic influences.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That`s always a possibility, but it works both ways.

All forms of musical expression vary tremendously betwen cultures, despite sharing many of the same building blocks. And - that`s my point against Jaquo broad and authoritative statement - some stuff is not obvious and easy to understand for a begginer. Just because you don`t like it or don`t understand, it doesn`t make it any worse from stuff you dig and understand.

If you haven`t been exposed to european folk music all your life I don`t really think you can be regarded as an any authority on the subject. 200 cd`s and some youtube videos just don`t cut it.

I know quite a bit about your musical culture, speak your language way better than you speak mine, but I`d never consider myself qualified enough to talk about it the way Jaquo does about European music. I just don`t know enough about it. If Jaquo has some deep understanding of european rythms - I`d like to see where does that kowledge come from. That`s all.

So because in your mind Jauqo's stating of his opinion is now broad and authoritative and you think he's offered that he's some sort of authority on European music...

where do people come up with this stuff. He said what he said... then it was off to the races. Ignore the actual words, ignore the context, just grab onto what will propel what you think you have a problem with.


Forgot to mention... the assumption about my command of your language was right on point with the rest of this thread. No probably or might about it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey Brad, before you came into this (tangent) discussion, we were talking about blues as it relates to European music. So, you're the one who changed it to funk.

So this wasn't a thread about funk? Okay.

Edit: This comment made me curious as to whether or not I had changed this to funk. My second post in this thread (the first was about the use of "y'all) was in response to bass12's statement: "I wouldn't suggest that funk has only one place of origin. As I see it, funk wouldn't be what it is without the influences of Africa, Europe and the United States".

My response: "I remember our go-go discussion all to well. At the risk of repeating that type of conversation, European influence on the type of old school funk Bootsy espouses? Expand on that.

Other than French Creole, I'm drawing a blank".

So I'm the one who changed it? I don't think so. We were clearly talking about funk.

I also remember you asking about Billie Holiday....

Yes, I did. What was the context? Does it matter?

Besides, funk didn't just happen. When I look at African American music, I like to look at it on a timeline. Everything was influenced by everything that came before it.

That's my problem with much of the "logic" espoused in this thread. The idea is that nothing can come about that goes in a new direction, owing little to it's timeline predecessors. New thinking if you will. According to this thread, it doesn't happen.

I clearly remember music before James Brown made the change. It was probably akin to George Carlin's comedy before he stopped wearing the suit... except Brown didn't have a Lenny Bruce.

Let's discuss it, instead of trying to 'one up' each other.



I'm not trying to 'win' anything here. I'm trying to be open minded and have a dialog. I invite a debate, not for the point of 'winning,' but for the point of exploring.

You win is simply a concession that this conversation just goes nowhere. Lots of peanut gallery comments, lots of proof that only seems to exist for some people, misremembering, the chance of anyone stepping back, dissecting the actual music and giving relevant examples seems to be nil.

 

[Fliptrique]

So because in your mind Jauqo's stating of his opinion is now broad and authoritative and you think he's offered that he's some sort of authority on European music...

where do people come up with this stuff. He said what he said... then it was off to the races. Ignore the actual words, ignore the context, just grab onto what will propel what you think you have a problem with.

I have opinions. Lots of them. Several of them fight with one another daily - not a pretty sight, belive me.

I just don`t share all of them with the world, especially when I know that I`m no expert on a given subject. And when I do...

Discusion is about understanding other sides way of thinking, not replying with one-sentence-wisdom stuff that must feel pretty cool to write but doesn`t ofer much beyond that.In my opinion Jaquo refusal to give any insight into his opinion is quite annoying.

Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

Please, read the second sentence again. I`ll call ignorance ("I don`t know much about it, but I don`t like it, so I don`t understand how would anyone, as cool as me, like it"), until proven otherwise.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Good point. Feel is relative to the style. A funk player may not be able to cop the authentic feel of Polish folk music, and vice versa. That is why I was trying to focus more on harmonic influences.

Which is of far less importance with much of funk.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

So because in your mind Jauqo's stating of his opinion is now broad and authoritative and you think he's offered that he's some sort of authority on European music...

where do people come up with this stuff. He said what he said... then it was off to the races. Ignore the actual words, ignore the context, just grab onto what will propel what you think you have a problem with.

Come on Brad it's me and it's talkbass.

lots of proof that only seems to exist for some people,

misremembering, the chance of anyone stepping back, dissecting the actual music and giving relevant examples seems to be nil.

Isn't that the talkbass way of doing things?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have opinions. Lots of them. Several of them fight with one another daily - not a pretty sight, belive me.

I just don`t share all of them with the world, especially when I know that I`m no expert on a given subject. And when I do...

Discusion is about understanding other sides way of thinking, not replying with one-sentence-wisdom stuff that must feel pretty cool to write but doesn`t ofer much beyond that.In my opinion Jaquo refusal to give any insight into his opinion is quite annoying.



Please, read the second sentence again. I`ll call ignorance ("I don`t know much about it, but I don`t like it, so I don`t understand how would anyone, as cool as me, like it"), until proven otherwise.

I read it the first time. It still reads the same.

What European music was prevalent in the US from it's inception on?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Come on Brad it's me and it's talkbass.









Isn't that the talkbass way of doing things?

Eventually there's hope that I might give The Man credit. That's what this is all about.


Yes, I think this is funny.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have opinions. Lots of them.

snip for new edit...

Please, read the second sentence again. I`ll call ignorance ("I don`t know much about it, but I don`t like it, so I don`t understand how would anyone, as cool as me, like it"), until proven otherwise.

You just can't admit that that is simply how you chose to interpret what clearly was not written. My guess is you don't understand as much as you seem to think you do, command of the language notwithstanding.

 

[NickyBass]

This comment made me curious as to whether or not I had changed this to funk.

HAHA. I knew you would go back and look. It changed a few times. Me and Jauqo and a few others were discussing blues for a few pages. Regardless, it doesn't matter now.

That's my problem with much of the "logic" espoused in this thread. The idea is that nothing can come about that goes in a new direction, owing little to it's timeline predecessors. New thinking if you will. According to this thread, it doesn't happen.

I clearly remember music before James Brown made the change. It was probably akin to George Carlin's comedy before he stopped wearing the suit... except Brown didn't have a Lenny Bruce.

AHA. Now we're getting somewhere! Can you go in new directions without being influenced by what came before? I suppose it's possible to ignore centuries of musical developments, including the well-tempered tuning, chordal harmony, melodic modes, etc. And it is possible that funk music would still have been created without any of these musical devices---but, and I ask again---would it sound the same? It would still be funk music, no doubt, but would it have sounded the same?

 

[cnltb]

...oh dear...

 

[Brad Johnson]

HAHA. I knew you would go back and look. It changed a few times. Me and Jauqo and a few others were discussing blues for a few pages. Regardless, it doesn't matter now.

I only went back because your truth certainly didn't reflect what I recalled (sound familiar?). And of course, now that I point out that you were clearly incorrect... it doesn't matter. What you were discussing for a few pages has what to do with me responding to bass12's post?

Zip.

AHA. Now we're getting somewhere! Can you go in new directions without being influenced by what came before? I suppose it's possible to ignore centuries of musical developments, including the well-tempered tuning, chordal harmony, melodic modes, etc. And it is possible that funk music would still have been created without any of these musical devices---but, and I ask again---would it sound the same? It would still be funk music, no doubt, but would it have sounded the same?

We can't know.... though I'm sure some of us will act like we could.


Have you listened to any recent R&B singers lately? Hell, have you heard Stevie Arrington? Tell me which melodic modes he's operating in?