Funk University Disappointment

[bongomania]

One person's "low bar" is another person's "objective assessment". If you want specific European melodies that predate trade routes across Northern Africa, that also show up note-for-note in a specific Bootsy Collins song, then you will not see any influence. But that totally ignores over a thousand years of cross-continental cultural interaction that occurred before Bootsy was born.

 

[aborgman]

And you seem to have a pretty low bar for what you consider influences.

So we obviously disagree. Right?

Obviously.

The thing is - I agree with the actual dictionary definition of influence.

You agree with your self created definition of influence.

In general, communication is fostered by common agreement on the definition of terms - a basic reason for the invention of dictionaries.

 

[Febs]

No you haven't. And now instrumentation? Which instruments were European... electric bass, electric guitar or drums?

The electric guitar is indisputably a direct descendant of a European instrument. The "ES" in Gibson's guitar line, for example, stands for "Electric Spanish."

The electric bass is also a descendant of a European instrument. There is endless debate about whether the electric bass descended primarily from the guitar or from the doublebass, but since both the guitar and the doublebass are European instruments, that distinction makes no difference for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[Brad Johnson]

+1
Thank you!

Yay!

When you see an artist on an show like MTV Storytellers and they're talking about people who had a direct effect on them musically and they use the term "influences"... are they using it incorrectly?

Because that's the kind of influence I'm talking about. Conflating away!

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I've heard stiff European music, stiff jazz, stiff blues, stiff funk, stiff reggae, stiff Polka... ANY type of music can be stiff.

So have I. And it doesn't hurt my feelings when some one expresses that sometimes music from those genres are stiff.


Some times music is stiff. Is that so hard for people to realize?

 

[Brad Johnson]

The electric guitar is indisputably a direct descendant of a European instrument. The "ES" in Gibson's guitar line, for example, stands for "Electric Spanish."

The electric bass is also a descendant of a European instrument. There is endless debate about whether the electric bass descended primarily from the guitar or from the doublebass, but since both the guitar and the doublebass are European instruments, that distinction makes no difference for the purpose of this discussion.

So the bar for influence is low enough to only require the instrument played? Were there stringed instruments prior to those in Europe? I already know.

If that's all it takes to be an influence, like I said, fine. The fact that it doesn't really define the music in question is probably inconsequential. Next up... Gregorian chants influenced Rap.

 

[aborgman]

When you see an artist on an show like MTV Storytellers and they're talking about people who had a direct effect on them musically and they use the term "influences"... are they using it incorrectly?

No.

They are just giving an incomplete list of their actual influences.

Reality is - by the very nature of influence - much of what we're influence by is imperceptible to us.

Because that's the kind of influence I'm talking about.

Ah, the classical logical fallacy known as "redefinition", specifically "high redefinition"

A redefinition is called "high" when the redefined term has a narrower extension than originally. For instance, if the word "bird" were redefined as "feathered flying animal", then flightless birds such as ostriches and penguins would no longer be "birds". So, the defining characteristic of a high redefinition is that the original term applies to some cases that the term in its redefined meaning does not.

 

[cnltb]

Some times music is stiff. Is that so hard for people to realize?

Of course it sometimes is.
The difference was that you singled out music of european origin.

 

[bongomania]

So have I. And it doesn't hurt my feelings when some one expresses that sometimes music from those genres are stiff.
Some times music is stiff. Is that so hard for people to realize?

Wait a minute, man. A few pages ago you used the argument that some or even most European music was stiff, to try and prove your point that funky music cannot have any European influence. Now you're saying "sure, all kinds of music can be stiff, what's the big deal about that".

 

[cnltb]

Yay!

When you see an artist on an show like MTV Storytellers and they're talking about people who had a direct effect on them musically and they use the term "influences"... are they using it incorrectly?

Because that's the kind of influence I'm talking about. Conflating away!

No they are not.
Who said they were?
Now that you've made it clear that it was this kind of influence you were talking about, the immediate,direct ,"me to you" kind of influence without talking in general terms: that makes a difference.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Obviously.

The thing is - I agree with the actual dictionary definition of influence.

You agree with your self created definition of influence.

In general, communication is fostered by common agreement on the definition of terms - a basic reason for the invention of dictionaries.

And then there's real life. LOL

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

He's probably heard of Pat Boone... he should've mentioned him.


And yes, I gave Chris my self created definition. It's spreading!

 

[Brad Johnson]

No they are not.
Who said they were?

aborgman.

Now that you've made it clear that it was this kind of influence you were talking about, the immediate,direct ,"me to you" kind of influence without talking in general terms: that makes a difference.

It does not have to be that direct. I did not say that. In the meantime many are perfectly satisfied with it being as indirect as scales. And ignoring the rest of the music simultaneously.

 

[Febs]

So the bar for influence is low enough to only require the instrument played?

Strawman. No-one has argued that the instrument played is the only influence. They've argued that it is an influence.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Wait a minute, man. A few pages ago you used the argument that some or even most European music was stiff, to try and prove your point that funky music cannot have any European influence. Now you're saying "sure, all kinds of music can be stiff, what's the big deal about that".

Did he say "most" of all kinds of music? And the highlighted part is again something people are hellbent on "reading". Why?

This shouldn't be this confusing (if in fact it is)... but apparently it is.

 

[aborgman]

aborgman.

Umm... Reading.Is.Fundamental dude.

I specifically said they weren't wrong, just incomplete.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Strawman. No-one has argued that the instrument played is the only influence. They've argued that it is an influence.

Pavlov would be proud. Here's a cookie.

I was speaking to a particular point. Maybe you noticed that. And my point is: is guitar enough alone for Funk to be considered influenced by European music?

You could've included the rest of the post (it was relevant) but instead chose the strawman tactic of leaving pertinent statements out.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No.

They are just giving an incomplete list of their actual influences.

Reality is - by the very nature of influence - much of what we're influence by is imperceptible to us.




Ah, the classical logical fallacy known as "redefinition", specifically "high redefinition"

And another classically feeble proclamation. Yay. I didn't redefine what my position is, you decided what you thought it was and ran with it.


Next.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Umm... Reading.Is.Fundamental dude.

I specifically said they weren't wrong, just incomplete.

Then by all means try it, dude.

 

[micromo]

Well I'm not here to insult any one. But to say that R&B music is influenced by European music is off the mark.


Origin and influences are two different things.


Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

This is what I believe is the root of many posters, including my own, problem with your argument. This does not say "some" or "a few". It says "most". Big difference between these words and you say it not once but three times. I don't believe you meant it to be, but talk about a broad sweeping and condescending generalization. You can't only pick the stuff that moves you as influences. Word choice matters.

 

[Brad Johnson]

We're talking about influence - influence doesn't differentiate between positive and negative.

There are no positive nor negative influences? R.I.F. indeed.

If you use things gleaned from that music - you're influenced by it.

Steal one chord voicing, etc.



Using European instruments is a European influence. Using European developed scalar systems is a European influence. Etc.

There is no maybe when it comes to whether funk was influenced by European music, just as there is no maybe when it comes to whether funk was influenced by African music.

Whatever, dude.