Funk University Disappointment

[cnltb]

Who says that just because a musician is influenced by a certain style, that style has to show in everything they do, or if it does as overtly as the untrained ear might like it to?

I don't hear much jazz in keith jarrett's performances of J.S Bach's well tempered piano or much ,messiaen in anthony jackson's performances on "The concert in central park" by simon and garfunkel.
Does that really mean that those influences are not there?

Sometimes all that comes through of an influence is a musician's touch or phrasing etc...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nice quote.

I think there may be something of interest in the bit of people not wanting to have been influenced by stuffy old white folks.

I think the "would even want to be influenced by" is a different avenue than actually influenced by. If you look at that, considering that "R&B" was a term invented to take the place of "Negro music" or "race music" we're looking at an era predating most members of talkbass. For those who came of age before Roots, before the black power movement, the drive and focus was not Africa, but very urban, very American.

The push is to look good and sound good, the frequent themes of swagger, virtuosity. The glamour, the bling, the style was not looking anywhere to Africa. I think the allure of "Africa" in the culture has been so powerful since its resurgence because it was omitted for generations previously.

My hunch is if you time-travelled back to 1940s and talked to people in R&B that they'd be very put off by talk of Africa, tribalism, or primitive elements or influences on their lives and music.

I'm not saying that there weren't African elements influencing R&B, etc.

I really do think if you're going to talk about influence (in contrast to wanting to be influenced), you need to be more analytical than talking about a "stiff feel." Stiff feel or its absence should be marked by some actual musical quality.

Rhythm in European music (and African music from the regions we'd consider relevant to R&B) are based on subdivision. 32 bars, each bar with 4 beats (or whatever), each beat chopped up triples or duples.

I think if you break down beat patterns, you might find something that's African and not European. Kinda like the standard reggae beat (1) 2 THREE 4, that is really Caribbean. I get kinda hung up on "the one" though.

I think there's even a bit more of interest in people wanting, if not needing credit without actually showing a tangible link beyond "They use the same notes". As if something couldn't be done in a new way.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, his point is that there is ZERO European influence on funk and blues. Do you agree with that? That is what we are debating. The roots are in Africa, no doubt, but there is a European influence.

The problem is some are debating that with me despite the fact that I didn't say it. By the same token if having the slimmest of connections with a genre is making people happy, fine. Claim it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

You seem to be assuming that people have to be aware of an influence in order to be influenced.

That's not the case.

Music was passed down in the same way as oral traditions were. The practitioner may have no knowledge of Africa or even African music.

But his slave grandfather did, and he taught his son, who taught his son, and so on.

Much the same as people who say they weren't influenced by Jaco but then list people who came after him who hold strongly to his style as influences.

Now if we could get someone to give something that correlates to funk...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nice to know what Lakland thinks of talkbass.

Brilliant. I guess I speak for Brubaker.

 

[Swimmer]

Hi,

I've taken two Berklee online Bass Courses and couldn't be more happy. Most, if not all, of the lessons and examples are provided in Tab and Notation, the professors (real professors) are always available and are very helpful. The courses are well thought out, thoroughly vetted of crap, and challenge everyone.

It sounds like this Funk U isn't a U and probably smells a little funky

 

[Brad Johnson]

Now I have only skimmed through this thread but a lot of what I read in Jauqo's posts worries me.
There is zero back up to most of it and loads of it is simply not true-The stuff about influences-what influenced blues,jazz,the funk etc...there sure was european classical music, just as well as anything else that the "fathers and mothers"of these styles were exposed to.
A little browse through sections of the library of congress,new grove online and a look into Lomax will show this.
Alongside biographies.
Statements like "that's the truth" or similar don't make it so and are simply not good enough.
No even here on TB.

But the stuff in the one I am quoting here is real bad. Sorry.
Who says that european rhythms or those originating from them are for the most part stiff?
Only someone ignorant to european rhythms and possibly deaf to the musicality therein.
But after a little research that can surely be remedied.
Nonetheless; a little care and thought before making certain statements may be called for at this point.
Over and out.

Do the research and post some pre-US music that moves in a manner that you'd consider not stiff... clearly if you know what stiff isn't as you've stated this should be a piece of cake. You'll be helping many of us out and be adding tremendously to the discussion.

 

[Brad Johnson]

And you`ve researched the topic extensively, to back up such claims?

Some euro-stiff classical rythms:


My point being - there is A LOT music in our history so summing it up in one sentence is - in my opinion - just not valid as an argument. I sincerely doubt that Jaquo knows as much as european music and it`s origins as he claims to know based on his authoritative statement.

One man's "stiff"...


Maybe you don't know what he meant.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So if take Funk U from my laptop in Europe I would be more stiff than if I took the lessons in Africa? Sorry just trying to understand the massive derail, and it's logic.

Yes, if that's how you understand it to work, that's how it is.

Sorry.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, what you meant by it is you're racist as hell, no matter what your skin color is. The Euro connection is obvious and easily proven, and has been proven repeatedly. On the flip side, you have people just saying "no it ain't, nyah nyah, look it up, the rhythm is black/African".

The only people "desperate" in this thread are ones so stuck in their dogma and racism that they can't acknowledge the clear and obvious influences that these large (and world-traveling) musical cultures have had on each other.

You can keep saying it's been proven but it would be nice if you could repeat a song title or two that you've provided as this oft-repeated proof... because so far I still haven't seen it.

 

[cnltb]

Do the research and post some pre-US music that moves in a manner that you'd consider not stiff... clearly if you know what stiff isn't as you've stated this should be a piece of cake. You'll be helping many of us out and be adding tremendously to the discussion.

Maybe a post from jauquo in which he posts some examples of what he calls stiff european music may be more fruitful?

At the end it's a subjective thing.

My objection was not that he thought european music was stiff, but that e seemed quite categorical about it and din't back it up at all.
I sensed something there that said, one thing he likes can't possibly be influenced by something he dislikes .
I disagree with this sentiment and with the way in which that sentiment was expressed. That's all.


But to name just one... I don't consider palestrinas's music stiff.

 

[Brad Johnson]

x2 The term melting pot doesn't solely apply to eurpoeans that came to America, all american culture and art are amalgamations of everything that has come before it.

It's a nice thought but even the slightest scrutiny would show it to not be true.

 

[aborgman]

You can keep saying it's been proven but it would be nice if you could repeat a song title or two that you've provided as this oft-repeated proof... because so far I still haven't seen it.

Influence:

1. To produce an effect on by imperceptible or intangible means.
2. To affect the nature, development, or condition of; modify.

You keep asking for song titles, as if having a similar song is somehow required for influence.

It ain't.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Absolutely.

Punk was a revolution against Disco and AOR - yet, them going in the opposite direction as a reaction to those types of music is an example of them being influenced by it.

Then Pat Boone can list Metallica as one of his influences.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I love blues, funk and jazz; all of them have their influences from african music, certainly. The European argument is interesting (not false, just interesting) as most of the pro European group talks about scales, counterpoint, basso continuo, etc. Some of these terms, although European, can be found in music all around the world going back thousands of years. Continuous bass lines are not a European phenomenon, nor is the idea of counterpoint.

Blues, funk, and jazz are predominantly, not solely, American stylistically. Therefore , they truly draw from many cultures. The instruments used, the feel, the rhythms. If you look hard enough you will see more and more nuances. Don't forget that African Americans come from a huge continent. Parts of the continent is near Europe, and other parts couldn't be farther away.

In a nutshell, the finding the true progenitor of these styles would be as difficult as answering the Chicken and Egg question.

Don't get me started there (I teach High School Biology, and every year have my students debate this question. You think things get heated here on TB?)

Agreed.

 

[aborgman]

Then Pat Boone can list Metallica as one of his influences.

Of course he could.

I really think people are having a hard time with the actual definition of influence.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Those who find my statement about some European music being stiff, take a break.


You mean to tell me that there is no European music that any of you may find or consider stiff?



One of the reasons a lot of none European musicians and none musicians do not care for the music is because they feel that some of it just moves a little to stiff for their taste.

And you guys seem to have forgotten, that humans are moved by music(any kind). How ever they come to be moved through how the music moves them.

Some people don't like very up tempo music. Because they say that they just don't feel it. I don't get bent out of shape about it.


Don't try to paint me as being negative or a evil person. How many here who does studio work and the artist or producer asks you to take a listen to some music that they want to work on, and the music has a deadness to it or it moves just a little to stiff? Sometimes when you get the right players together to do the songs they take on a more livelier feel. It's all about interpretation.

I have done sessions where the drummer was just not happening and I suggested to the drummer to try some ting in particular or just get another drummer. And the next thing you know the track is working.

 

[aborgman]

Don't try to paint me as being negative or a evil person.

I don't think you're negative or an evil person -

I do think think you're a very poor written communicator, who makes lots of overly broad claims and never supports any of them with any evidence.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, I asked you questions (note the ?'s), so you can clarify what you actually meant, instead of you just throwing vague stuff out there and then saying "that's not what I said" when people try to understand you.

I didn't say they were different and if you read them without that intent they'd likely seem similar. If I meant they were different I would've said so. You forgot to quote this: "No more sarcastic than the Coltrane example. Again, people seem to read what they want to into things".

I'm guessing that shed no light either.

To borrow your theme, "I didn't say that". I said they may still be influenced.

Which if I understand the word "may" correctly it leaves open the option that they MAY NOT.


You keep going on and on not about that funk may be influenced, you're saying it is and it's been proven repeatedly. Which is why I keep asking for actual examples of something like a standard James Brown groove that's at it's core layered with multiple rhythms. THAT is what makes it Funk, not the scale or note name. YMOV

My point was to bust down all that one-sided dogmatic thinking. Could be one way in one instance, another way in another instance, and anywhere on an infinite continuum, from one artist to the next, one song to the next, one day to the next.

How do you leave the possibility open when you keep saying something is proven?

For example, back to Handy: he was influenced by European hymns early on, but then later he was also strongly influenced by more African/slave-rooted folk singing. The blues that resulted has a very strong attachment to the Afro/slave roots, but that doesn't mean he was a clean empty slate before he "invented" the blues (I know, one man can't be given all the credit).

When James Brown switched from R&B to Funk (and yes, he did switch), I doubt WC Handy had much influence on what he was playing.

 

[cnltb]

I don't think you're negative or an evil person -

I do think think you're a very poor written communicator, who makes lots of overly broad claims and never supports any of them with any evidence.

+1
and in the post I initially quoted,most rhythms of european origin(I paraphrase) was mentioned. Not some european music as is said now.

I'd have not had a problem at all if it had been some in the former