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Funk University Disappointment
- Thread starter Johnius
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If I had more time (I post from work....shhhh) I would like to check out the Bootsy videos. I'm sure that there is some very good conceptual info there.
As to the tangent, it has turned into a mess. I've stated my points--as have others--and it seems that going further would be an 'are not, are to' argument---which I certainly don't feel like entering. It's a shame, because I am very interested in discussing world music history and the fusion of different backgrounds and cultures. I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here and hope that in the future, we can have a more organized and respectful discussion on the subject.
As to the tangent, it has turned into a mess. I've stated my points--as have others--and it seems that going further would be an 'are not, are to' argument---which I certainly don't feel like entering. It's a shame, because I am very interested in discussing world music history and the fusion of different backgrounds and cultures. I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here and hope that in the future, we can have a more organized and respectful discussion on the subject.
I know the last thing this thread needs is one more person chiming in on this, but here's how I see it. If anyone else here is schooled on metaphysics, epistemology, etc. (particularly that of Kant), think of it this way:
The overall general CONSTRUCT in which blues/funk/jazz/etc. exist as we know them today is of European influence. I.e. the scales, keys, etc. that are most often used.
The overall CHARACTERISTICS that truly define those styles of music are of African influence.
So I would argue that, for the most part, Funk, as we know it today, is an African-influenced style of music within a European-influenced musical construct.
That's all for today. Your homework is to read chapters 4-6 in your Funklopedia along with your updated vocabulary lists from your Funktionary due on my desk no later than next Tuesday.
1,000+ to that. And would join/watch such a disscussion if/as you opened one up. Or anyone else, for that matter, provided... ...we CAN have a more organized and respectful discussion on the subject. Right there with ya.
bigfatbass
Inactive
- Jun 30, 2003
- 2,420
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- Endorsing Artist: Karl Hoyt Basses
Sorry for my overly long first post that underplayed the fact that there IS some useful/entertaining/enlightening stuff at F.U., but it is buried behind an overly complex/obfuscated interface, and endless repetition to fill the need for content.
Think of it like the kid who has 2 valid points for his essay that really get to the core of what he is supposed to be writing about, but has to fill 4 pages. So, he just says the same 2 things in 10 different ways. Doesn't make the points any less valid, but it does produce a paper that will get a crappy grade.
Think of it like the kid who has 2 valid points for his essay that really get to the core of what he is supposed to be writing about, but has to fill 4 pages. So, he just says the same 2 things in 10 different ways. Doesn't make the points any less valid, but it does produce a paper that will get a crappy grade.
Why do you think I hate you? Just because I disaggre with you?
And for the record - my complaint is not about what you feel, it`s about what you`ve written.Music:
Strophe
Phrasing
Rhythm based on division
Ensemble
Counterpoint
Basso continuo (ie forerunner of bass lines)
Harmonic structure
Melodic structure
Instrumentation:
Piano
Brass horns
fretted guitar
the $%^& bass . . .
Attitude & Culture
All American, but R & B costumery reflects European elements, decidedly urban, bling, puttin on the Ritz (where's that hotel located?)...
I still firmly believe that the best way to understand R&B is to consider the more immediate cultural milieu of early 20th century black America.
Absolutely.
Punk was a revolution against Disco and AOR - yet, them going in the opposite direction as a reaction to those types of music is an example of them being influenced by it.
Huh?????
Funk, R & B and Blues as I know it, listened to it, played it and feel it has nothing whatsoever to do with European influences. Just because it uses some of the same instruments does not constitute an influence. Just because it uses the same notes etc does not constitute an influence. Those same instruments and notes were used in ways that no one had ever used them before. Maybe our definition of Funk and R & B is so different because of our different frame of reference. Everyone does not get it or understand it which is quite obvious by this thread. I do not get Metal, Death, Thrash or whatever. It does not appeal to me , nor do I question its' roots, because I do not know. I respect their craft even if I do not like it. For that matter I do not care for Hip Hop, Rap or whatever, but I respect their right to do it. My opinion is just because you can play the notes and know the structure still does not necessarily mean that you can play a particular song Genre properly.
I agree with you. The site itself could be more streamlined and the information is padded. I attribute this to the site being new and them wanting to spread out the info so they have updates every day. But I'd say that after a year when all the stuff is available off the bat it'll be a really good resource.
I'm not offended with anybody having complaints with anything. Most of the criticisms are valid. I just agree that it would be a good idea to let the source know your criticism so they can improve things rather than just ranting somewhere else where they may or may not see.
bongomania
Commercial User
Yeah, well I have a deep lifelong love of African-inspired music, including blues, jazz, funk Afrocuban, etc. etc., and it is clear to me that European influences exist in nearly all modern American variations and derivations of those roots. It's not about "frame of reference", it's about seeing what is clearly there.
It just doesn't make sense to say "the notes, scales, harmonies, modes, notation, and instrumentation are all European, but the rhythm is African so therefore there is no European influence". Or "It doesn't sound like Western classical music to me, therefore there is no European influence". Neither of those statements holds water.
bongomania
Commercial User
The posts are all over the place. If you don't see them, I can't help you. I will repeat though: W.C. Handy, the "father of the blues", was first trained on European hymns, before he went on to do his thing. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder were both trained from a young age on European music (religious and classical) and a European instrument (piano), before they went on to do their thing. Coltrane studied European classical composers intensely. You want more? Go back and re-read more of what has already been written.
I love blues, funk and jazz; all of them have their influences from african music, certainly. The European argument is interesting (not false, just interesting) as most of the pro European group talks about scales, counterpoint, basso continuo, etc. Some of these terms, although European, can be found in music all around the world going back thousands of years. Continuous bass lines are not a European phenomenon, nor is the idea of counterpoint.
Blues, funk, and jazz are predominantly, not solely, American stylistically. Therefore , they truly draw from many cultures. The instruments used, the feel, the rhythms. If you look hard enough you will see more and more nuances. Don't forget that African Americans come from a huge continent. Parts of the continent is near Europe, and other parts couldn't be farther away.
In a nutshell, the finding the true progenitor of these styles would be as difficult as answering the Chicken and Egg question.
Don't get me started there (I teach High School Biology, and every year have my students debate this question. You think things get heated here on TB?)
Blues, funk, and jazz are predominantly, not solely, American stylistically. Therefore , they truly draw from many cultures. The instruments used, the feel, the rhythms. If you look hard enough you will see more and more nuances. Don't forget that African Americans come from a huge continent. Parts of the continent is near Europe, and other parts couldn't be farther away.
In a nutshell, the finding the true progenitor of these styles would be as difficult as answering the Chicken and Egg question.
Don't get me started there (I teach High School Biology, and every year have my students debate this question. You think things get heated here on TB?)
I'm wondering...
The temparament of most instruments used in the western hemisphere today is a european "invention". The way we hear music is very much influenced, maybe even defined by this.
That doesn't mean we have to always think about this fact and may even forget about it at times.
Maybe henry ford was deeply influenced by his Irish background... I don't know.
How english is new york, or boston now, or new england?
How french is new orleans?
How german is cologne/minnesota?
How belgian is the saxophone?It was invented by a belgian,Adolphe Sax, but I'm sure more people will have heard of Coltrane and Parker...
One could go on I guess.
The influences are everywhere, absolutely every where,it may just be it in a name, but that does not mean that a place, a style of music , anything, can't have it's own identity too. Does it?
That's why I don't get all this.
Over and out...
The temparament of most instruments used in the western hemisphere today is a european "invention". The way we hear music is very much influenced, maybe even defined by this.
That doesn't mean we have to always think about this fact and may even forget about it at times.
Maybe henry ford was deeply influenced by his Irish background... I don't know.
How english is new york, or boston now, or new england?
How french is new orleans?
How german is cologne/minnesota?
How belgian is the saxophone?It was invented by a belgian,Adolphe Sax, but I'm sure more people will have heard of Coltrane and Parker...
One could go on I guess.
The influences are everywhere, absolutely every where,it may just be it in a name, but that does not mean that a place, a style of music , anything, can't have it's own identity too. Does it?
That's why I don't get all this.
Over and out...
You've read quite a bit into what I didn't say.
No more sarcastic than the Coltrane example. Again, people seem to read what they want to into things.
And that's the only way that can work? Could they not be influenced by them and merely be playing a popular song?
It does by definition, unless you want to redefine the word influence.
It does by definition, unless you want to redefine the word influence.
No you haven't. And now instrumentation? Which instruments were European... electric bass, electric guitar or drums?
bongomania
Commercial User
No, I asked you questions (note the ?'s), so you can clarify what you actually meant, instead of you just throwing vague stuff out there and then saying "that's not what I said" when people try to understand you.
To borrow your theme, "I didn't say that".
I said they may still be influenced. My point was to bust down all that one-sided dogmatic thinking. Could be one way in one instance, another way in another instance, and anywhere on an infinite continuum, from one artist to the next, one song to the next, one day to the next.For example, back to Handy: he was influenced by European hymns early on, but then later he was also strongly influenced by more African/slave-rooted folk singing. The blues that resulted has a very strong attachment to the Afro/slave roots, but that doesn't mean he was a clean empty slate before he "invented" the blues (I know, one man can't be given all the credit).
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