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Genz Benz Streamliner; Part 4

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#462
Fretless5verfan said:
I think that law isn't really applicable here. There are plenty of cabs out there that aren't that heavy, have very good depth, and high perceived volumes. Genz, Bergs, and Epis come to mind, and I'm sure there are others. My SL600 and AE212 are small, around 60lbs combined(!), put out some massive lows, and as much volume as I need for any situation. When you start talking specs and efficiency (as the law is stated in) you're missing the point. It how it sounds on the gig that counts :bassist:
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oh really? i didn't know that.

:D

listen, you may not want to think about it on a gig, but that doesn't mean it's not applicable. using the same amp, a guitar cab with a single 12" playing guitar will absolutely blow away the loudness levels of a 12" bass cab designed to do 40hz. that's the whole reason guitarists can get away with a lot less wattage than we can. it isn't your job to think about stuff like that on a gig, though...it's your job to put on a show. but bass cab designers have to think about stuff like that, and to date, the amount of cab makers who have defeated hoffman's iron law is still 0.
 
#464
Jimmy that is because of the human ear not the gear. That being said it's busted and that is that.

Chef, please do not right me another ticket officer. :D

I can keep up with a loud guitar player with my little Shuttle 9.0 and a 37 pound 2x10. On the 9.0 you engage the low boost and crank it. The signal remains clean and the cab likes that however you want to think about it.

I had been saying all along if you could get the 500 watts into one small cab it would be much better than an amp that was working overtime and putting out 250 watts into a small 8 ohm cab. With the Genz new power section, the 500 watts into a tiny 8 ohm cab is a major improvement in the restrictions we had. You do not need a 90 pound head and an 8x10 to compete anymore. You can tell yourself you do but that is just simply denial at this point.
 
#466
True Story:
guitar watts are different, I swear.

Loudest guitar player I can recall working with recently was using an 18 watt tube amp of his own design, based loosely on the Fender Princeton/Champ kinda thing, with another 115 underneath.
He was literally so loud he was overpowering the PA, and sending me home crying like a schoolgirl.

We fired him.
 
#467
JimmyM said:
how come you need 500w to compete with the guitarist's rig? is he running 500w? no? didn't think so. you busted nothing.
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Compared to guitar, reasonably clean/deep bass reproduction takes several times the amount of power.

I do agree in part, though, that it is still difficult to beat Hoffman. Class D amps are indeed lighter and much more efficient. And cabinets like the fEarfuls are pushing the limits for size, frequency response, and overall output. Still, most of the people above are giving up low fundamental response for overall loudness/small size.
 
#468
JimmyM said:
absolutely, and that's exactly my point. of course ken is right when he says "it depends"...that's a no brainer. but i just think somewhere along the line, you have to believe in physics and know when to say when. a lot of people just plain don't, and they're the ones always wanting 4 ohm small/medium cabs to get "full wattage" even when common sense would tell you they can't take it.
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Yeah, I notice a lot of guys trying to get a 12 to sound like a 410 or more.
I don't care who makes it or what it's made out of, that's just not gonna happen.
Unless you happen to maybe "design" cabs and sell the plans online. Then you can do it. ;)
 
#469
12bass, i'd say that's mostly right. but amps are not covered under hoffman's iron law, and cabs like the fearful, if they're tuned to go as low as they possibly can, need more wattage to be as loud on the lows as most "normal" bass cabs.
 
#470
12bass said:
Compared to guitar, reasonably clean/deep bass reproduction takes several times the amount of power.

I do agree in part, though, that it is still difficult to beat Hoffman. Class D amps are indeed lighter and much more efficient. And cabinets like the fEarfuls are pushing the limits for size, frequency response, and overall output. Still, most of the people above are giving up low fundamental response for overall loudness/small size.
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Guilty as charged.
My Bag End 15....rolls off at like 50hz or something like that. But can get stupid loud.

Ken and I were talking the other day when I was at his house.
By example, my BE as you could tell on my video from this weekend, was nothing short on the low end dept with my Sadowsky 5.
And for all practical talk on TB, that thing shouldn't really handle a low B like it does.
"Sometimes" a too low tuned cab can be a bad thing.
 
#472
JimmyM said:
oh really? i didn't know that.

:D

listen, you may not want to think about it on a gig, but that doesn't mean it's not applicable. using the same amp, a guitar cab with a single 12" playing guitar will absolutely blow away the loudness levels of a 12" bass cab designed to do 40hz. that's the whole reason guitarists can get away with a lot less wattage than we can. it isn't your job to think about stuff like that on a gig, though...it's your job to put on a show. but bass cab designers have to think about stuff like that, and to date, the amount of cab makers who have defeated hoffman's iron law is still 0.
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Are we cabinet designers? No. I don't think about that crap on a gig and neither do you. My cab is loud enough, light enough, and low enough for my purposes. I don't really care if Hoffman or anyone else says that's not possible...clearly it is. I can understand if you're talking about specs that cabs can't simultaneously meet, but shouldn't the conversation be about what we hear and not some numbers?
 
#473
JimmyM said:
12bass, i'd say that's mostly right. but amps are not covered under hoffman's iron law, and cabs like the fearful, if they're tuned to go as low as they possibly can, need more wattage to be as loud on the lows as most "normal" bass cabs.
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Although unrealizable in the real world, my general point is that we're getting closer to achieving the goal of loud/low/light, helped in part by modern driver and cabinet designs, composite materials, and light, high-powered class D amps. Historically, we're much closer now than we were a few years ago.
 
#476
Fretless5verfan said:
Are we cabinet designers? No. I don't think about that crap on a gig and neither do you. My cab is loud enough, light enough, and low enough for my purposes. I don't really care if Hoffman or anyone else says that's not possible...clearly it is. I can understand if you're talking about specs that cabs can't simultaneously meet, but shouldn't the conversation be about what we hear and not some numbers?
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This.......
 
#477
Fretless5verfan said:
That's my point. I don't care about the law. Why should I? If it can't be broken, it's a non-issue isn't it? :smug:
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it's not an issue until you decide you want to use a cab with crazy low extension like an svt 410hlf only to find out the amp you were using with your less low-extended 410 will no longer handle your needs. if that never happens to you, fan-freakin'-tastic. but if it does happen, you will know why once you understand hofflan's iron law. just because you don't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

and that's my whole point here...all this talk about hoffman's iron law being broken is untrue. i'm just setting the record straight. what you do with this factual info is up to you...but it doesn't stop being a fact just because you don't care.

btw, chef...bill's horn designs don't break hoffman's iron law, either ;)
 
#479
JimmyM said:
it's not an issue until you decide you want to use a cab with crazy low extension like an svt 410hlf only to find out the amp you were using with your less low-extended 410 will no longer handle your needs. if that never happens to you, fan-freakin'-tastic. but if it does happen, you will know why once you understand hofflan's iron law. just because you don't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

and that's my whole point here...all this talk about hoffman's iron law being broken is untrue. i'm just setting the record straight. what you do with this factual info is up to you...but it doesn't stop being a fact just because you don't care.
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That did happen to me. Figured since the sensitivity wasn't as high, I needed some more watts to get it up to the volume I expected. Had no clue about this law at the time. ;)

I understand what you're saying, but it's just that what you're saying doesn't matter.

This will illustrate my point: What are the definitions of low, loud, and light? Is that what you feel and hear? What if my light is someone else's heavy? What if your loud is someone else's lack of volume (Mr. B-15 :p )? In the absence of some numbers, the law can easily be broken to one person, and not broken to someone else.

Are there actually numbers for this anywhere? :confused:
 
#480
was the 410he/410hlf comparison not enough for you? i don't think anything illustrates it more clearly than that. if you want a loud cab in a small box, low end efficiency is the tradeoff. period. that's why the 410he is much smaller than the 410hlf, and that's why the 410hlf won't get as loud with the same wattage.
 
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