Genz-Benz Streamliner Part 5

[KJung]

I really like my Streamliner, but I was wondering about something. Why would GB voice an amp in such a way that 99% of users would need to cut the lows? I can't believe that any of the testers ran the eq flat during testing, so why not voice it closer to what almost everybody would use? I'm sure they knew almost everyone would cut lows, so doesn't it seem strange?

I believe this is due to the design goals of the amp. If you have spent time with various all tube amps, you will experience a similar issue if you match a tube amp up with a modern, widely voiced cab. They really did nail that big low end dynamic with this head, and if you match the head to cabs that are reported to work well with a variety of tube amps (e.g., sealed one way 10 loaded cabs or whatever) you will find that you won't really need to touch that bass knob.

Even with the tightly voiced AE410, in some rooms, I'm barely cutting the low end at all.

This head is NOT just another typical hybrid head with a 12ax7 in the pre, it is something IMO quite different and unique to the market. As a result, it behaves quite differently from the typical 'take it out of the box and plug it in' solid state head.

IMO, moving to using this head is not like moving from an F1 to a Shuttle, or from an MB500 to an LMIII or whatever. Totally different thing.

I will post again that another amazing thing about this head is that even with the big low end, the hi pass filtering keeps the head from ever sounding flubby and tubby. Even with a super full, fat low end dialed in, you will not see that huge pistoning of the speakers that you get with some tube heads. Very nice 'roundness' to the low end of this head, with a nice match of sounding huge and 'controlled' at the same time.

 

[Darkstrike]

I had assumed that as they were using the baxandall tone circut, or a variation of it to keep it vintage tubey sounding, that it was just the way that circut worked, more boost than cut.

IIRC, all the classic amps that used it were flat when set to Bass-2, Mids-10, Treble-2, or in that range, of course the Streamliner has active mids, right, so they'd be flat at half way up, rather than cranked to 10, right?

 

[Eublet]

I had assumed that as they were using the baxandall tone circut, or a variation of it to keep it vintage tubey sounding, that it was just the way that circut worked, more boost than cut.

IIRC, all the classic amps that used it were flat when set to Bass-2, Mids-10, Treble-2, or in that range, of course the Streamliner has active mids, right, so they'd be flat at half way up, rather than cranked to 10, right?

There is no flat really, not on those old heads or on the Streamliner. That's part of what gives all these units their signature tone.

 

[Tunaman]

I really like my Streamliner, but I was wondering about something. Why would GB voice an amp in such a way that 99% of users would need to cut the lows? I can't believe that any of the testers ran the eq flat during testing, so why not voice it closer to what almost everybody would use? I'm sure they knew almost everyone would cut lows, so doesn't it seem strange?

Smeet, you're starting to get it... this amp is different & why we like it

 

[hasbeen]

I really like my Streamliner, but I was wondering about something. Why would GB voice an amp in such a way that 99% of users would need to cut the lows? I can't believe that any of the testers ran the eq flat during testing, so why not voice it closer to what almost everybody would use? I'm sure they knew almost everyone would cut lows, so doesn't it seem strange?

hmm...I'm not sure where you're getting your 99%. Most players that I talk to have the bass straight up. Please note, I'm not necessarily speaking of people on TalkBass....I'm speaking of people in clubs/gigging that I work with.

Also, I do most of the "voicing" work on our amps....I did indeed do most of the testing with the bass straight up. Lots of different basses though.

With my Lakland, I did/do indeed cut the bass if I'm going through my Epi cab. With my Ken Smith, I actually boost the bass.

NOTE: FWIW, I do NOT boost bass on my instrument preamps. If I boost anything, it is the mids.

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

hmm...I'm not sure where you're getting your 99%. Most players that I talk to have the bass straight up. Please note, I'm not necessarily speaking of people on TalkBass....I'm speaking of people in clubs/gigging that I work with.

Also, I do most of the "voicing" work on our amps....I did indeed do most of the testing with the bass straight up. Lots of different basses though.

With my Lakland, I did/do indeed cut the bass if I'm going through my Epi cab. With my Ken Smith, I actually boost the bass.

NOTE: FWIW, I do NOT boost bass on my instrument preamps. If I boost anything, it is the mids.

Amen. I guess I am among the 1% who has the bass straight up. My Uber 410 likes it thay way!

 

[smeet]

hmm...I'm not sure where you're getting your 99%. Most players that I talk to have the bass straight up. Please note, I'm not necessarily speaking of people on TalkBass....I'm speaking of people in clubs/gigging that I work with.

Also, I do most of the "voicing" work on our amps....I did indeed do most of the testing with the bass straight up. Lots of different basses though.

With my Lakland, I did/do indeed cut the bass if I'm going through my Epi cab. With my Ken Smith, I actually boost the bass.

NOTE: FWIW, I do NOT boost bass on my instrument preamps. If I boost anything, it is the mids.

Right. I was making a huge assumption, so I apologize for that. But, I'm surprised that you find most players using the bass straight up. What kind of basses/cabs/music are they in general playing (the ones that leave the bass at 12)?

I've mostly been playing it though my NEOX 212T, that is such a fat sounding cab maybe that's why I had that impression.

BuffaloBob, you are correct, it is quite different through my Uber 410, although I haven't played out with that. Actually I might have to boost the bass through my Schroeder!

In any case, my question was not intended as a criticism of the amp, just curiosity. I've never had a tube amp, so maybe I'm just not familiar with some of the differences there. I really like this amp. I notice that when I go back to my Eden WT-400, it sounds thin and unfocused in comparison to the SL900.

 

[kesslari]

I really like my Streamliner, but I was wondering about something. Why would GB voice an amp in such a way that 99% of users would need to cut the lows? I can't believe that any of the testers ran the eq flat during testing, so why not voice it closer to what almost everybody would use? I'm sure they knew almost everyone would cut lows, so doesn't it seem strange?

I'm one of those starting to cut the lows.
I am going for a particularly mid-forward sound, and on this amp, cutting the lows helps.
With the lows set flat, the sound is more "old school" - and it's a GREAT sound too. Just less what I hear in my head.
First time I gigged the SL I had the lows set flat, and got lots of compliments about the sound. Bandmates grinning. Booties shaking.
I may go back to that sound - but cutting the lows a bit seems to leave plenty of that bootyshaking goodness, while letting the mids come through a bit.

I should add that I'm cutting the lows to around 11:00 - maybe 10:00.
If folks said they were cutting mids or highs by this amount, would anyone wonder about it?
YMMV, etc.

 

[Eublet]

hmm...I'm not sure where you're getting your 99%. Most players that I talk to have the bass straight up. Please note, I'm not necessarily speaking of people on TalkBass....I'm speaking of people in clubs/gigging that I work with.

I think this is true. Most players run a much fuller sound than what seems to be popular on TB. Lately I've only been cutting bass to about 11 myself with my Lakland. It's a much deeper sound than what I had grown used to, but it sounds fantastic with the tube feel accompanying it. This coming weekend will be my chance to use it as a Post-EQ DI only. I plan to go for that slightly overdriven SVT thing with a P bass and a pick. I usually use a BDDI for that, or the Tone Hammer with some mid cut and boosted low end. The SL900 does that tone way better than both of them now that I'm getting better at tweaking it. I didn't think it did the SVT thing at first, but if you crank this 2.5 kHz mids pretty high(3 o'clock or more) with the bass flat, and cut treble down to about 9 o'clock, it sounds much like a full SVT/810 rig with the "bright" switch engaged, even through the DI. It's even better at pulling that tone off than the VT pedal IMHO.

I say all that to point out that at first I thought the bass was voiced a bit too big at noon myself, but I'm really starting to come around to the natural voicing because it makes so many variations possible in getting some classic all-tube sounds happening.

 

[ErnieD]

"It's even better at pulling that tone off than the VT pedal IMHO."

As I own the VT pedal and was quite impressed with it thru my Markbass F1 or LMII heads. I'm gathering alot of info on this new amp head with these informational megathreads. Great stuff.

My biggest rig is a Crown Coredrive XLS1500 with either BBE Bmax (non-T) or Alembic F-1X. Any possible comparo of the Streamliner and the F-1X pre? Possibly, even with the VT pedal into the F-1X? Tho I've not tried it yet, I should prolly hook it all up this coming week as I plan to use that pre/pwer amp rig at a big gig next weekend with a single UL-410 or two Neox 212T's.

Been using LMII/F1 with a single UL-410 or Neox 212T lately, small club gigs. For kicks I took out my GB Neopak w/212T past Friday and turned up the gain, got a nice grind out of it when I dug in. Don't suppose there is any STM vs Neopak comparo at all, huh? Seems from what I'm reading/hearing here, its a whole other thing. Liking what I'm seeing so far.

 

[svtb15]

True.. I really does go well with many styles of cabs...
I have had the week off... So i lent my SL900 to a friend to eval and play on his gigs.. I have to pry it from his hands later today.. Seriously though..

Thanks Kirk! It feels like the cab was made for the Streamliner, though I know it's true of a lot of cabs with this sweet amp.

 

[svtb15]

I run my Bass control straight up at noon..
Unless i am on fly date and get an 810.. With my Sadowsky NYC-PJ5 or Alleva Coppolo kbp4 or Alleva LG5 i back it off to about 11:00 and boost the 2.5k just a little on a typical ampeg 810... Bass have EQ off in passive mode, or dialed back to "O" no boost so its just a pre buffer..

 

[Red Planet]

I really like my Streamliner, but I was wondering about something. Why would GB voice an amp in such a way that 99% of users would need to cut the lows? I can't believe that any of the testers ran the EQ flat during testing, so why not voice it closer to what almost everybody would use? I'm sure they knew almost everyone would cut lows, so doesn't it seem strange?

Perhaps I'm one of a few but I like the way my Streamliner is voiced. I run it flat almost all the time. I have yet to even try the Mid control. I know I should be trying some different tonal inflections but I'm satisfied with the tone to the point of not needing to fool with it much.

I was one of those in the first group to get one, so I have had it plenty long enough to experiment but I've not needed to. Go figure.

 

[Red Planet]

I think this is true. Most players run a much fuller sound than what seems to be popular on TB. Lately I've only been cutting bass to about 11 myself with my Lakland. It's a much deeper sound than what I had grown used to, but it sounds fantastic with the tube feel accompanying it. This coming weekend will be my chance to use it as a Post-EQ DI only. I plan to go for that slightly overdriven SVT thing with a P bass and a pick. I usually use a BDDI for that, or the Tone Hammer with some mid cut and boosted low end. The SL900 does that tone way better than both of them now that I'm getting better at tweaking it. I didn't think it did the SVT thing at first, but if you crank this 2.5 kHz mids pretty high(3 o'clock or more) with the bass flat, and cut treble down to about 9 o'clock, it sounds much like a full SVT/810 rig with the "bright" switch engaged, even through the DI. It's even better at pulling that tone off than the VT pedal IMHO.

I say all that to point out that at first I thought the bass was voiced a bit too big at noon myself, but I'm really starting to come around to the natural voicing because it makes so many variations possible in getting some classic all-tube sounds happening.

I agree TB has a way of skewing your outlook on what works tonally. I make my Bass Tone rap around the Guitars/Keyboards etc.... not compete with them.

It seems the Low End of the Streamliner is pronounced but because of the tubey thing it fits better and is not boomy.

 

[nostatic]

I don't run the bass flat, but I never have on any amp with my Rob Allens. Last night I was having a devil of a time with F on both basses (RA and P-Bass). Big resonant woof in the room. Oddly enough, same thing at Friday's gig (different venue). It was driving me nuts. Unfortunately I was shoved close to a wood and glass door with my rear-ported AE210. It was happening on both basses and with both heads (I swapped the Shuttle9.0 in at the break) so it ain't the S900s fault. Listening to the recording I'm not hearing it very much and the basses sound awesome - I suppose I was sitting in the wrong place. Such are cafe gigs. But they can be fun...

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[BuffaloBob4343]

Perhaps I'm one of a few but I like the way my Streamliner is voiced. I run it flat almost all the time. I have yet to even try the Mid control. I know I should be trying some different tonal inflections but I'm satisfied with the tone to the point of not needing to fool with it much.

I was one of those in the first group to get one, so I have had it plenty long enough to experiment but I've not needed to. Go figure.

I assume you mean you are one of the few who like the way the SL is voiced flat.

I too have had the SL for a good long while, and I like everything at noonish, but I have been boosting the mids to about 3 o'clock at 600 Hz. I like the way that setting brings the mid mids up to the level of the lows. I occasionally drop the mid freq to the 220 level, especially if its a heavier song.

I think one of the interesting things about the amp is that it really takes a little time to readjust the tonal pallet when you first get it. The bass is just so deep and so phat that at first, it does take some getting used, especially if you've been using a more SS voiced amp.
I think I agree with some who believe that it's not so much that the mids are scooped, but more that one's perception is that they are due to the lows. That's why i like boosting the mids because it seems to bring the mids a bit more into balance, even if only in my perception.

But as Ken Jung has stated a number of times, while the low-end is so deep and so huge, it is nevertheless very tight and not at all boomy, at least through my Uber 410. So I don't shy away from letting those lows speak. As was mentioned in a previous post, the low end is huge, the booties are shakin and the boys in the band are smilin. What's not to love?

 

[Eublet]

I don't run the bass flat, but I never have on any amp with my Rob Allens. Last night I was having a devil of a time with F on both basses (RA and P-Bass). Big resonant woof in the room. Oddly enough, same thing at Friday's gig (different venue). It was driving me nuts. Unfortunately I was shoved close to a wood and glass door with my rear-ported AE210. It was happening on both basses and with both heads (I swapped the Shuttle9.0 in at the break) so it ain't the S900s fault. Listening to the recording I'm not hearing it very much and the basses sound awesome - I suppose I was sitting in the wrong place. Such are cafe gigs. But they can be fun...

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You were probably in a standing wave at that frequency, or had some reflective cancelations at other frequencies. IMHO all you can really do in those cases is remind yourself that it won't sound the same in other locations in the room, so no need to keep fiddling.

 

[nostatic]

You were probably in a standing wave at that frequency,

But I was sitting

 

[JxBass]

I think the sonic waves were reflecting off the hat brim

 

[esoxhntr]

But I was sitting

Well... That looks less than ideal...