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Genz Benz Streamliner Tube Rolling

#61
I tried two different 12AT7's in V1. One was a Sylvania 12AT7 the other a Raytheon 6201. I did not like either though it may just be those tubes.

I tried an EI Gold Elite 12AX7 in V3, it was a little microphonic.

I tried a JJ ECC83 in V2 it was OK.

I tried a NOS really short plate Tesla E83CC in V1 and really liked that.

I ended up leaving the Tesla in V1 and installing my old Mullard 1950's in V2and V3. They are such good tubes.

One thing I can say for sure is when you install something the Streamliner rfeally likes it makes a huge difference. If you install a tube that just so so jives with the Streamline you get so so results.

The Tesla and two (real) Mullard tubes ended up being a very good combination. I even like how clean the Tesla is.
 
#63
Red Planet said:
I tried two different 12AT7's in V1. One was a Sylvania 12AT7 the other a Raytheon 6201. I did not like either though it may just be those tubes.
Click to expand...

IME, probably not, since those are both good sounding AT's. i've never liked an AT as a replacement for an AX. AT's are too thin sounding unless used as a phase inverter or a circuit that's designed specifically for them. the only substitute for a 12AX7A/7025 that has worked well for my is a 5751 and a 12AY7 (ala tweed deluxe).

2 cents...........
 
#64
johnk_10 said:
IME, probably not, since those are both good sounding AT's. i've never liked an AT as a replacement for an AX. AT's are too thin sounding unless used as a phase inverter or a circuit that's designed specifically for them. the only substitute for a 12AX7A/7025 that has worked well for my is a 5751 and a 12AY7 (ala tweed deluxe).

2 cents...........
Click to expand...

I give you that but I have been using a long plate 5814A in there with really good results. I engage the gain boost/turn off the pad dime the channel volume and set the channel pre gain at about 12:00 and it sounds fantastic. Real clean, tight, no noise, and a very hot signal with no distortion.

That being said I'm like the Tesla E83CC in there as well. It has a very small plate structure.
 
#65
Picked up a used Streamliner 900 yesterday (thx nostatic) and took it straight to a gig at Whole Foods. Yes, that's right, Whole (paycheck) Foods. Alto sax, trumpet, guitar and bass. Ran the amp into a Berg HT112ER and with all knobs straight up it sounded terrible. Wooly and indistinct. Rolled of the bass and things got better but really a brutal acoustic environment.

Today bought a set of Allen Keys and went to work.
1) Amp sounds much better through my Berg HS210.
2) Bass rolled off to 9 or 10 o'clock sounds much better.
3) Add some treble, even better.
4) Mild mid-range boost at 600 or 2.5L adds nice detail.

I'm looking to emulate the tone of my all tube Aguilar DB359 and am gradually getting closer ;-)

Tube swaps
1) Put a JAN Philips 12AX7WA in V1 -- sounds good
2) Put a JJ 803S in V2 looking to tighten the bass a bit. Sounds good.
3) Put the V1 JJ 83S into V3. Sounds good.

Will put the amp to the test at another gig tomorrow night and report back.
I wonder what a GE5751 in V1 would do for the tone?
Comments?
 
#66
Tried the GE5751 in V1 and found it quiet but brittle. Put the NOS Philips back in.

Played a second gig with the new tubes in place and thought things sounded better but, as others have mentioned, room acoustics can be unhelpful ;-) Really tough if you're right beside your cab and the crowd is loud and unruly ;-) Had to boost upper mids and cut bass but otherwise worked fine.

Find the sound at home to be harmonically rich and complex. Will stop now before I start sounding like an oenophile. Leathery tannins, smoky overtones, and a long smooth finish... Yum!
 
#67
Something to note: If you're simply going to use it without cracking the hood, the Streamliner will likely be more reliable than vintage gear. However, PC boards and miniaturized components are more prone to damage from user error than hand-wired construction, chassis mounted tube sockets, etc. If you swap tubes every five minutes like some people do with old Fenders, and you don't know what you're doing, you risk shortening the life of your amp or worse.

Meanwhile, based on my past experience with old RCA's, Mullards, etc. vs the best current production preamp tubes in guitar amps, the differences in frequency response at clean levels are small, on the order of tenths of a dB. Even when pushed, the differences only rise to a couple of dB either way. Most of the interesting differences are in how they break up, minor differences in upper harmonic content, and the amount of compression they provide.

In other words, assuming an apples-to-apples comparison (ie; 12AX7 to 12AX7), we're talking about fairly small details, especially if you're mainly into clean tones. In many cases, you can achieve similar results with a minor twist of the tone controls.

You know yourself best.

If you're mechanically savvy, have good hands, and are careful not to stress the board when pulling or re-inserting tubes, then you shouldn't cause any problems.

But if you've broken a key off in a lock more than once; if you're prone to stripping threads or chewing up screw heads; if you've ever broken something while attempting to fix it; you might want to go easy on this stuff, or at least have a trusted tech do it for you.
 
#68
Finally got my RTA software problem figured out, gonna take a while to get traces posted, as I have to re-do all my plots. Grrr...

Anyway, here's a set of traces for a 1969 greyplate RCA 12AX7A in V1, OEM tubes in V2 and V3. RTA was reading preamp only, coming off the Preamp Out jack. Mid frequency switch was set at 2.5K, and the tone controls were at 10 o'clock for the bass, just past 2 o'clock for the mids, and half-way between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock for the treble.

The curves show the characteristic treble change at various Gain settings with a 12AX7A in V1. This is not an RCA thing- the curves for the stock JJ/Ruby are the same to within a few 10ths of a dB.

EDIT: I ran another set of curves this morning, playing around with the Volume knob and varying overall signal levels. Proved that impact on tone is mostly dependent on the Gain knob. Volume only changes the treble response by a dB or so...

I'll post the curves for an Electro Harmonix 12AY7 when I get some time- the treble doesn't change as much with level and/or gain variations...

RCAinV125K10-22-105.jpg
 
#69
woolysock said:
Picked up a used Streamliner 900 yesterday (thx nostatic) and took it straight to a gig at Whole Foods. Yes, that's right, Whole (paycheck) Foods. Alto sax, trumpet, guitar and bass. Ran the amp into a Berg HT112ER and with all knobs straight up it sounded terrible. Wooly and indistinct. Rolled of the bass and things got better but really a brutal acoustic environment.

Today bought a set of Allen Keys and went to work.
1) Amp sounds much better through my Berg HS210.
2) Bass rolled off to 9 or 10 o'clock sounds much better.
3) Add some treble, even better.
4) Mild mid-range boost at 600 or 2.5L adds nice detail.

I'm looking to emulate the tone of my all tube Aguilar DB359 and am gradually getting closer ;-)

Tube swaps
1) Put a JAN Philips 12AX7WA in V1 -- sounds good
2) Put a JJ 803S in V2 looking to tighten the bass a bit. Sounds good.
3) Put the V1 JJ 83S into V3. Sounds good.

Will put the amp to the test at another gig tomorrow night and report back.
I wonder what a GE5751 in V1 would do for the tone?
Comments?
Click to expand...

Not too sure about emulating a DB 359, but...

The 5751 will tighten up your bass a bit, but if you want less mush, try an RCA 5814 in V2, or even in V1 and V2 if you can afford the volume drop. The JAN12ax7WA is a winner as far as I'm concerned, I like it in V3, or V1 and V3.

Also, I'm with you - I think the HT112ER is the wrong choice for this head. A single HT112 original cab is okay, but your HS210 is a better choice. For me there is something about the Streamliner and 10 inch speakers that just "works".

On a gig, try bass at 8:30 or 9:00, mids at 2:00 or 3:00 @ 600hz, and treble at noon plus. The EQ settings don't get wonky at the extreme ranges so don't be afraid to push the envelope.
 
#72
Red Planet said:
To each his own I supposen. I use the HT112ER regularly with the Streamliner it it is much tighter than my Golight 2x10.
Click to expand...

Interesting, Red Planet. I wonder why some TB'ers don't like the match up with the STM and the HT112ER, and some TB'ers do.

I was asking because I like the idea of having a portable stacked pair of 112 cabs that will totally rock, along with a micro head that has great classic tone. That's why I was considering the STM 900 and a pair of Jim's new HD112's (which are nearly the same as the HT112ER's).
 
#73
Well IMO, there is the TB lore that one needs more midrange to compete with midrange. I go around the midrange. I let the Guitar be the Guitar, I be the Bass. :D


The Bergantino AE cabs sound like angry Bees, the Bergantino HT Cabs are wide glide fat boys. Some feel the HT's will accentuate the mid scoop in the Streamliner (which ain't that big). It can easily be dialed out though if that is your thing.

I purchased a set of Bergantino AE112's new and the increased presence at around 1k was just too dang much for me. Jim let me take them back and swap for the HT (much better).
 
#74
Red Planet said:
Well IMO, there is the TB lore that one needs more midrange to compete with midrange. I go around the midrange. I let the Guitar be the Guitar, I be the Bass. :D


The Bergantino AE cabs sound like angry Bees, the Bergantino HT Cabs are wide glide fat boys. Some feel the HT's will accentuate the mid scoop in the Streamliner (which ain't that big). It can easily be dialed out though if that is your thing.

I purchased a set of Bergantino AE112's new and the increased presence at around 1k was just too dang much for me. Jim let me take them back and swap for the HT (much better).
Click to expand...

Thanks RP. It sounds like your preferences are more in line with mine. I'm not into the aggressive mids tone. I like the thick fat warm tone. I used to have a pair of stacked Berg HT115's, and they sounded fantastic. That is the tone I like. But now that I am 55 years old, those cabs would be a bit too big for what I am looking for. That's why I am now leaning toward a stacked pair of 112's. And for some reason, I like ceramic magnet drivers better than neo's.

I really appreciate you chiming in as you did. It has reassured me that the new HD112's would be a good match with the STM 900 (for my taste).
 
#75
It appears to me from everything I could dig up the HD112 it's pretty much the same animal except for to-lex instead of carpet. I saw where someone has mentioned it would have a different tweeter but no one official has mentioned that.

I leave the tweeter turned off most of the time anyway.
 
#76
SactoBass said:
Thanks RP. It sounds like your preferences are more in line with mine. I'm not into the aggressive mids tone. I like the thick fat warm tone. I used to have a pair of stacked Berg HT115's, and they sounded fantastic. That is the tone I like. But now that I am 55 years old, those cabs would be a bit too big for what I am looking for. That's why I am now leaning toward a stacked pair of 112's. And for some reason, I like ceramic magnet drivers better than neo's.

I really appreciate you chiming in as you did. It has reassured me that the new HD112's would be a good match with the STM 900 (for my taste).
Click to expand...

Man those Berg HT115's sounded good but seemed like really large cabs. I only played one of them and I bet a pair sounded really good!
 
#77
[QUOTE said:
Red Planet;11591074]Well IMO, there is the TB lore that one needs more midrange to compete with midrange. I go around the midrange. I let the Guitar be the Guitar, I be the Bass. :D
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I agree the reason I like the Streamliner so much is because it makes the bass sound like it's supposed to. It doesn't cut through the mix it wraps around everything and sits in the mix very nicely.
 
#79
Red Planet said:
To each his own I supposen. I use the HT112ER regularly with the Streamliner it it is much tighter than my Golight 2x10.
Click to expand...

And that pretty much sums it up, really depends on what you're using to get "that" sound. Now, I haven't played the STL through an HT112ER, but I can't imagine it being tighter down low than the original HT112 with the STL. I did at one point own both original and ER stacks at the same time, so there is some reasonable point of reference.

Having said all that, different ears, different preferences - 12s are your thing with this amp, and either 10s or a single 15 work for me. It's all good. My only suggestion would be for people to try the alternatives, it's really the only sure way.
 
#80
No offense to anyone, because I'd be the last guy to quell talk about my favorite cabs (Bergantino) but, we should try to stay on topic:

Genz Benz Streamliner Tube Rolling.

Someone should start a thread "Genz Streamliner, Shuttle & Bergantino".
 

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