Genz Benz Streamliner Tube Rolling

[boethius]

Agreed this is a fun head to roll. I now have a TAD RT011 Mullard reissue in V1 and V3 and a TAD RT080 7025WA in V2. Super buttery fretless but with tight transient response as well. The RT011 was a tad too warm in V2...but if you're doing straight reggae it has that luscious wrap around tone and feel. Just my 2 cents...but hey everybody loves to roll their own! ;-)

 

[grendle]

Can anyone comment on the differences in the 5751's ? Years ago I tried GE, Phillips, and sylvania 5751's , one was 12ax7 like, one had a nice bump in the mids and had nice overtones, and one had a slight bump in the lows but was very hi fi / 3d sounding . I think the GE had the bump in the lows and was the one I liked best but I can't remember. Also can you get the 5751's to get grindy / break up a bit? My old hartke wouldn't do that, even with a dirty 12ax7.

 

[Saluki]

@ JohnK, Do you think any 5751 in V1 will remove some of the "cloudiness" as you describe it? I mean is the main factor the gain difference of the 5751 and the 12Ax7 in V1, and so any high quality 5751 will improve the the "cloudiness". I am sure there are differences between each NOS 5751, but probably none as significant as the gain drop from the 12Ax7 to the 5751. Just wondering as the local shop has many different groove tubes including 5751s just not sure what the NOS availability is.

 

[Red Planet]

Not sure I understand the whole cloudiness comment.

The thing I get from using a lower gain tube in V1 is a higher clean headroom/hotter signal with less ovedrive.

With the 5814A in V1 I can get a very hot signal cranking the channel volume all the way, setting the pre volume to noon, and engaging the gain boost switch. It's not noisy at all either.

That beind said I have been liking this NOS Tesla E83CC tone wise. It must be a lower gain tube as it is still allowing me to keep that very clean signal. With a standard 12AX7 I do not like the amount of overdrive I get when I crank it. I like overdrive but never play dirty at gigs so I'm looking for clean Marine.

I'm sure the Tesla has more gain than my 5814's but it seems not to have as much as most of my 12AX7's. The plate structure is tiny in this Tesla tube.

 

[johnk_10]

i recommended the 5751 to remove 'cloudiness' (yes-it's my term to describe what i'm hearing). it doesn't really make the amp less bassy. it just opens up the amp's dynamics. to me, a 12AX7 in the front end of it feels like it's oversaturated and a bit 'stuffy, and i'm not talking about distortion or just gain, but the way that it sounds making each note a little too thick and compressed for my taste. compared to an SVT, it's definitely compressed until you try a 5751. IME, with a 5751 it approaches the same dynamic range of an SVT and sounds better with it. as always YMMV.

as far as groove tubes, i'm not a big fan of them, so i have no idea of how a GT or a sovtek 5751 in there would sound.

 

[Jazzdogg]

i recommended the 5751 to remove 'cloudiness' (yes-it's my term to describe what i'm hearing). it doesn't really make the amp less bassy. it just opens up the amp's dynamics. to me, a 12AX7 in the front end of it feels like it's oversaturated and a bit 'stuffy, and i'm not talking about distortion or just gain, but the way that it sounds making each note a little too thick and compressed for my taste. compared to an SVT, it's definitely compressed until you try a 5751. IME, with a 5751 it approaches the same dynamic range of an SVT and sounds better with it. as always YMMV.

as far as groove tubes, i'm not a big fan of them, so i have no idea of how a GT or a sovtek 5751 in there would sound.

Your description articulates what was bothering me about the sound I heard every time I tried the Streamliner900; I may have bought a Streamliner if it had been equipped with a 5751.

I wonder of GB would consider offering a 5751 as a factory option?

 

[johnk_10]

Your description articulates what was bothering me about the sound I heard every time I tried the Streamliner900; I may have bought a Streamliner if it had been equipped with a 5751.

I wonder of GB would consider offering a 5751 as a factory option?

the first time i plugged into one, within a couple of notes, i thought it was a bit compressed, but i still really liked it. i just like it more with the 5751 in the first gain stage, but others may not.

i dunno, i think it's unlikely for benz to offer a 5751 as a factory option (it's great the way it is) but all you'd have to do is pop the top and try it. i think that's one of the really cool things about the streamliner, the fact that it's even more versatile and variable by trying different tubes in it, which is something that with most new hybrids, swapping tubes doesn't have much of an effect at all. in that way, it's more like a vintage fender amp, or even my SVT-VR. i'm running all NOS tubes in the front of my VR and got it to sound pretty much identical to my '69 SVT.

 

[woolysock]

Gig report

Ran my 62 ri p-bass w old DR nickel Low Riders into the Streamliner equipped with:
GE 5751 in V1
Phillips JAN 12AX7WA in V2
JJ803S in V3
all into a Bergantino HS210
playing in a guitar/drums/keys/bass/vox group for a local bar's Halloween party...

Not the world's best acoustics but very real world...

Bottom line:
Rig sounded great. Thick and creamy. Supportive. Rich. Lots of bottom but not too much.
Gain = Noon
Volume = 2 o'clock
Bass = 10 o'clock
Mid = 2 o'clock @ 600K
Treble = noon
Master 1 o'clock

Sounded even better soloed w/o the rest of the band ;-)

I think we have a winning combination here.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I think I had an "a-ha" moment overnight.

I do a lot of tube rolling in my sideline as a guitar amp tweaker and repairman. It's a really important function, because small changes in the way an amp breaks up, are very important to most guitarists.

However: I don't hear a huge difference in the clean tones of my Streamliner when swapping the OEM tubes for my (small) collection of NOS tubes, or my (pretty comprehensive) selection of current-production tubes. The differences are definitely there, but the effects are pretty subtle.

On the other hand, I know that small changes in EQ, on the order of half a dB over a narrow frequency band, are often interpreted by audiophiles via terms like "open", "cloudy", "punchy", "transparent", etc.

I realize this wouldn't work for distortion junkies, but I'm a clean tone fanatic when it comes to electric bass, so here's what I'm thinking: why contribute to the continued shrinkage of the world's small supply of vintage tubes, if I can give myself the same sort of subtle tone tweaking via a nice, transparent parametric EQ?

I can buy an Empress for less than the price of a pair of Telefunken's. Inserted into the effects loop of my Streamliner, it will give me access to a whole world of new tonal options.

Another advantage of the EQ, is that it won't go "off" over time, whereas tubes are a consumable. The long-term running cost of replacing worn-out OEM tubes is going to be far less than it would be with NOS. Even if the NOS tubes last longer, which isn't always the case...

Anyway, just a thought. Back to your regular programming.

 

[johnk_10]

IME, NOS tubes can last 30 years, and just my opinion, but i would rather not have more things to plug in or have in the signal chain (including a SS equalizer). IMO, rolling tubes isn't just about eq. it also can effect the overall soundstage, scope, attack, compression and 3D effect of the amp, which is more of a 'feel' thing, and i think that an added eq patched into the loop takes me further away from those effects, but if using an additional eq achieves what one is looking for tone-wise, then by all means go for it.

 

[agedhorse]

Tubes can indeed affect the frequency response of the circuit, and since they are mechanical (or electro-mechanical) devices, small changes in the physical tolerances can have an effect on the tone/frequency response IF the circuit is agreeable (ie. the topology does not minimize the effects of wide tolerances).

I'm not sure I would go the the work of an external eq, but there's nothing wrong with the approach in theory or in practice.

 

[Red Planet]

Several things here to mention that I keep hearing repeated over and over and over.

First off the Streamliner was designed to do a specific task. If it does not meet ones needs one has the wrong task in mind to start with from this amp. If you cannot handle the built in frequency response of the Streamliner you have the wrong amp. It's simple, it's not at all complicated. If your looking for "flat" (which there is no such thing, perhaps "flatter") you are on the wrong continent.


Second to go to the subject of tubes, I am fortunate to have several hundred preamp tubes setting around. There is no reason the Streamliner will not function particularly well with todays tubes in it. That being said quality of some of todays current production tubes is lacking badly. Sometimes you might get lucky but that would be more a function of luck than by design. However you can improve your odds by using better quality current production tubes. FYI all current production tubes are not of the same quality.


First off save yourself some trouble, learn who makes what/where, and educate yourself as to what is really what.

For a quick Red Planet rating on current production preamp tubes let me say this;


All the New Sensor/Reflektor Corp products = (fake)Svetlana, Mullard, Tung Sol, Sovtek, EH, Gold Lion, etc.... pretty much have a very short life span. The New Sensor tubes IMO have recently gotten worse in quality as they had to move the factory from Saratov Russia to outside Russia because of all the corruption. The JJ's that are distributed by New Sensor are almost the same as these are purchased in Bulk without any QC or testing (giving JJ a bad name).

The best source for good quality JJ's in the USA is Bob at Euro Tubes. Bob is a native of the Slovak Republic and has a special relationship with JJ. Get your JJ's there period. JJ is an ISO 9000 Company which means a lot in manufacturing.


The SED tubes that are manufactured in St. Petersburg Russia in the (real) Svetlana Thermionic Factory are definitely the best tubes made on the planet but are harder to get thus more expensive. I'm hoping they will make the Svetlana ECC83 available. It cannot currently be purchased. For some reason SED has not been affected by all the corruption in Russia of recent years.

The Shugauag's are relatively good but you never know when these tubes are real Shuguang's or from some other factory in China. You never know what your getting with Chinese tubes. It is really difficult to get these guys to tell you where the tubes are being made. Don't count on any of the tube dealers or other manufacturers to actually know the real truth.

Also for NOS lovers/users there are a heck of a lot more fraudulent reproductions out there than there are NOS tubes. In recent years (for example) there were a lot of tubes Branded Amperex Bugle Boy that were actually not real. This practice has been around since the beginning but in olden times it was a way for a company to put their name on a product not fool you into thinking you have a Yugo with a Cadillac emblem on it. This is the practice today.

NOS is pretty much gone. If you do not have your lifetime supply you are out of the picture on this one. Half of the tubes for sale on Ebay are frauds, the other half are used.

Brands such as Mesa Boogie, Groove Tubes, TAD, Ruby, and a host of other names do not manufacture any tube, nor have any influence with any manufacture of tubes, nor has ever manufactured a tube of any sort EVER.

There are some other obscure tube manufactures out there that make tubes that mostly do not apply to us.

 

[sunbeast]

So I decided to give the tube rolling a try myself with the handful of tubes I had available. Mostly looking for a bit more midrange clarity/ a little tighter bass reponse.

I noticed quite alot of difference between tubes, especially when swapping out one particular Ruby tube- I finally realized that it was because there appears to be a problem with that one stock Ruby tube. I can put in any tube in its place, whether another 12ax7 or even a 12au7 in any of the positions, and the Ruby will give a significantly lower gain than the other tube (what amounts to a quarter to a half of a volume knob turn in difference!). The other Ruby tube appears to function as expected- higher gain than the 12au7s I messed with and slightly less output than the JJ 12ax7, but the problematic Ruby has far less gain than any of the other tubes I had to mess with. I'm about to go buy another 12ax7 or a pair and see if maybe my issues with this head have been a result of a bum tube all along? At this point I'm not sure if the bum tube was originally in the V2 or V3 position, so I wonder what effect it was having overall... Also going to see if one of the local stores have any cheapish 5751s while I'm out.

Question- are the stock tubes included in the warranty for the Streamliner? While the Ruby in question does put out sound, it is obviously not working as intended!

 

[TC.65]

I think there is a 3 month warranty on the tubes.

 

[svtb15]

I have had incredibly good success with the stock tubes that came in my Streamliner.. I have running it hard for almost a year.. Im just going to leave it alone ... I figure, Why fix something that isn't broken ..
The only thing i did was swap VI for an old Pre tube i pulled from am aguilar amp that i had years ago.. It was a JAN 12ax7.. it seemed a little more mellow but not a big enough difference to be noticed on a gig so i put the JJ back in and I thin kits great .. real quiet too...

 

[Jazzdogg]

So I decided to give the tube rolling a try myself with the handful of tubes I had available. Mostly looking for a bit more midrange clarity/ a little tighter bass reponse.

I noticed quite alot of difference between tubes, especially when swapping out one particular Ruby tube- I finally realized that it was because there appears to be a problem with that one stock Ruby tube. I can put in any tube in its place, whether another 12ax7 or even a 12au7 in any of the positions, and the Ruby will give a significantly lower gain than the other tube (what amounts to a quarter to a half of a volume knob turn in difference!). The other Ruby tube appears to function as expected- higher gain than the 12au7s I messed with and slightly less output than the JJ 12ax7, but the problematic Ruby has far less gain than any of the other tubes I had to mess with. I'm about to go buy another 12ax7 or a pair and see if maybe my issues with this head have been a result of a bum tube all along? At this point I'm not sure if the bum tube was originally in the V2 or V3 position, so I wonder what effect it was having overall... Also going to see if one of the local stores have any cheapish 5751s while I'm out.

Question- are the stock tubes included in the warranty for the Streamliner? While the Ruby in question does put out sound, it is obviously not working as intended!

With the low-gain tube, do you notice a change in tonality, clarity, or timbre, or just the gain reduction?

 

[johnk_10]

I have had incredibly good success with the stock tubes that came in my Streamliner.. I have running it hard for almost a year.. Im just going to leave it alone ... I figure, Why fix something that isn't broken ..

yep, IMO it's a great sounding amp the way that it comes stock. BTW, my UA 6176 and LA610 MKII came with JJ ECC83's too, and they sound awesome.

 

[sunbeast]

With the low-gain tube, do you notice a change in tonality, clarity, or timbre, or just the gain reduction?

It's hard to say for sure as I didn't have another 12ax7 on hand at the time to do a direct comparison, so I had to shift the position of the other Ruby tube and a 12au7 that I had to diagnose the problem- no matter what other tubes were in the amp at the time, the one "bad" Ruby tube would cause a noticeable loss of gain. Tonight I plan to open up my Walkabout and use its 12ax7s to get a more clear diagnosis of the tonal change (if any) of the funky tube as I will be able to do a quicker switch out. The other problem is that due to the big change in gain, I have to try to normalize levels after swapping tubes, which is kinda a crapshoot using my ears alone, so I don't really know quite what I'm hearing unless it is a fairly dramatic difference. I can say that there seems to be a bit more clarity/less boom at the moment with the Amperex 12au7 I have in V2...

I will report back when I've got more...

 

[sunbeast]

So I went and picked up some new 12ax7s from the local shop. They only had one old 5751, an RCA, but wanted $60 for it so I passed on that one. I just went for some relative cheapies for experimentation- a Tung Sol longplate and a couple Sovtek longplates.

After a long and somewhat maddening tube rolling session I can say that this amp is definitely very sensitive to tube changes! I narrowed the lineup to two major setups that I really like=
V1-Sovtek LP
V2-Amperex 12aux7
V3-Tung Sol LP

or

V1-Sovtek LP
V2-Tung Sol LP
V3-JJ

The first combo has the most clarity by far of all the combos I tried- the au7 seems to cut the bass, but without sacrificing the treble like I would have expected. It also thickens up nicely if desired, but seems to retain the mid clarity much better with the bass raised than the stock setup. There is a noticeable drop in gain vs having all 12ax7s, but nothing super drastic.

The second combo has a really powerful thick midrange- more compressed in the mids than the first, but still more punch and clarity to my ears than the stock combo. The lows feel very clear with the Tung Sol in V2- definitely more oomph than the first combo, but without the same clarity in the highs. Putting the JJ in any position seems to add a noticeable amount of gain to the circuit too.

While I like the first combo the best in my room, I have a feeling the second might sound more powerful in a mix. Both have noticeably improved the mid presence over the stock tubes, though I can't say how much of that might be related to the funky Ruby tube I had. JohnK is definitely spot on about the compressed nature of the JJ in V1, though I feel just using a lower gain 12ax7 is satisfactory to me so far- the Sovtek LP seems to be a fine choice for that position. I also was not too big into the 12au7 in V1, though it could have just been the much lower gain that I wasn't liking- I still like to play this amp on the edge of grit...

I definitely feel like keeping this amp now at least until I can use it live a few times to see if what I'm hearing translates well in a mix- I was pretty set on moving on from it before this tube swap. Thanks for the help guys!

 

[johnk_10]

IME, the sovtek LP's are excellent sounding tubes. unfortunately they're usually often prone to being a little too microphonic (especially in the first gain stage of most fender amps) or can start getting microphinic in a short time. IMO, it's an awesome sounding RI tube though, so if it does start getting micrphonic, you can always use it further down the line (in this case V2 or V3).