Getting overpaid - owner wants it back

[Zooberwerx]

Better response: “Sorry, I no longer have the $$ as it was used to fuel the church van so I could drive nuns & orphans to the zoo”.

Riis

 

[Jefenator]

I've never been that big on contracts at least for smaller routine shows because IME they add more tedium to the booking process, they're usually not practical to enforce, and goofy stuff like this still winds up happening.
I'm more of a "don't **** with me and we'll keep doing business" kind of a guy. And that's where you and the venue owner have wound up.
I could see a $100 tip for the band at a wedding or party. That's a bit unusual from a club - unless you've really packed the place and they made a lot of extra money, clearly thanks to the band.
So is the owner being a cheap, petty idiot, or is she trying to plug money leaks so she can stay in business? Is the relationship a mutually beneficial one, or were you getting ready to quit playing there before this happened?

 

[NickyBass]

Just from a different perspective...if you arrange to buy a bass on TB, meet the guy, pay him $600 cash, go to leave feedback, notice that the ad says $500...what do you do?

 

[Bob Coldwell]

If this was the ONLY place to play in town I may be more forgiving. But this is TACKY as hell. TACKY. AS. HELL. We got overpaid once, by alot more than $100 and we made it known to the manager. He said to keep it. So, while I agree the BL should have made it known to the person that was paying them, asking for $100 back is soooo lame. The owner could have said, hey we overpaid you guys $100, we can take it off the next gigs pay and been good. Sounds like the owner is beyond cheap.

Actually, according to the OP, the bar owner said "What do you want to do about it?", not "Give me back the money."

 

[skycruiser]

Offering a $100 credit for the next show seems just as petty as the owner asking for the money back in the first place. Might as well take the high road and return the cash.

 

[NickyBass]

I think it’s not so much hustling as they also have books they need to resolve and profits to make. From my experience, it is always better to view the venue as your partner in a successful night, rather than as an opposing force, unless proven wrong. Even in those cases it is always worth it to take the high road and act with integrity, especially when dealing with difficult people. I have been consistently playing 80-100+ shows a year for the past 10 years in many settings, and what I have learned is that building bridges and doing the right thing by the client is more important than nickel and diming. There have been many cases where we have, within reason, played over our time, added services (adding bass or cello for cocktail), or shifted around set times to do what we know is going to sound or go best with the flow, and it has helped us to establish ourselves as experts who will get the job done no matter what. In terms of weddings, we have gotten tons of referrals from satisfied brides and grooms. For venues, we are usually the band that they keep when cuts are going around, or the band that are given a raise when other bands that demanded higher pay got cut eventually. When you win over venue and managers and maître d’s one by one, you build a robust portfolio of gigs. From my perspective, it’s all about the long game and always acting in the best interest of the team for the night rather than just yourselves as the band.

This is such a great approach and well put.

 

[Beej]

Lotta old guys in here, including me. This owner has no filters, common sense or comportment. Return the money or not, but know that she will never do you any favours, and is also not going to speak well of the band going forward. She will also handle her manager how she does regardless of whether the money got returned.

 

[MoireBass]

"Oh, we thought that, since you guys were doing such great business that night that the extra $100 was a tip. Like at other places we've played. Rather than me clawing back the money from my guys, who really need the money, how about we give you a $100 discount the next time we play there? Next week maybe?"

And if they do good business the next time you play there, raise your subsequent fee by at least $75 -- and smile big.

You probably already know this, but there's a widespread feeling among waitresses and bartenders that many women don't seem to feel the same obligation to kick down a portion to the lesser-paid workers. One told me "As a feminist, I hate to admit this, but my heart sinks when I see six women sit down at one of my tables, because I know that I'll probably get about a $3 tip."

 

[Knavery]

It's too bad musicians NEVER have any leverage. I see this time and time again on here.

 

[JazznFunk]

It was not a hugely priced gig. The place has a history of cheaper solo acts and not paying that much. We spoke with her for a long time before the gig and actually discounted our rate for her which we will do for new venues on occasion with the hope of additional dates. The BL did the negotiation and I don't know how long or if she was even there to hear us. She was definitely not there at the end of the night...which was only 11 pm by the way so not that late. Left the bar manager to pay us. I need to verify with the BL if he said the extra hundy was a tip or not.

Heard. In my humble opinion, this is one of those instances where the juice just doesn't seem worth the squeeze, and the fruit wasn't really that high quality to begin with. With that 'unexpected' $100 you probably got a little more in the ballpark of what you SHOULD be getting paid - especially if you did a great job and got a good turnout. Regardless, if the manager screwed up, it's definitely tacky for the owner to call you up well after the gig was done and you were paid and demand the $ back. I personally would not book there again out of principle. Hope it shakes out okay all around, whatever that looks like.

 

[JohnnyChatter]

Ummmm. In the hospitality world tips are not uncommon at all. I would give the hundred back because obviously he/she needs it more than you do and in the future note the way they are. If I overpaid a waitress 100 bucks I wouldn’t drive back and ask for my money because I’m a ding dong and I’m not making nightclub money.

 

[JazznFunk]

It's too bad musicians NEVER have any leverage. I see this time and time again on here.

And when bands go back again to an establishment that screwed them over, it reduces the leverage even more. Saying NO is often more powerful than saying Yes. Although you have to be okay with sitting home a bit more than you might otherwise.

 

[JazznFunk]

I think it’s not so much hustling as they also have books they need to resolve and profits to make. From my experience, it is always better to view the venue as your partner in a successful night, rather than as an opposing force, unless proven wrong. Even in those cases it is always worth it to take the high road and act with integrity, especially when dealing with difficult people. I have been consistently playing 80-100+ shows a year for the past 10 years in many settings, and what I have learned is that building bridges and doing the right thing by the client is more important than nickel and diming. There have been many cases where we have, within reason, played over our time, added services (adding bass or cello for cocktail), or shifted around set times to do what we know is going to sound or go best with the flow, and it has helped us to establish ourselves as experts who will get the job done no matter what. In terms of weddings, we have gotten tons of referrals from satisfied brides and grooms. For venues, we are usually the band that they keep when cuts are going around, or the band that are given a raise when other bands that demanded higher pay got cut eventually. When you win over venue and managers and maître d’s one by one, you build a robust portfolio of gigs. From my perspective, it’s all about the long game and always acting in the best interest of the team for the night rather than just yourselves as the band.

There's a dividing line between building bridges and being pandered to though. IMO, this isn't 'nickel and diming' - this is a 'business' trying to deflect either an 'unapproved act of generosity' or an error (depending on how you view it) by one of its staff, onto the band. A wedding venue and gig is a way different scenario when it comes to improvising and smoothing things over - because you're already getting paid more than adequately for your time. Yeah, you wiggle and you accommodate in those cases.

 

[Matt R.]

That club owner sucks.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Doesn't really matter that the manager wanted to overpay;

It absolutely does matter if the manager wanted to overpay. That person is by proxy the representative of the venue and has been given the authority to complete the financial provisions of the contract.

If the person that has the authority to fulfill the obligations of the contract intentionally & knowingly gives extra money after the financial part of the contract has been met, it is not the responsibility of the band to know or care about the source of the additional money.

After the contract is “closed / completed” any money that changes hands either direction is not subject to any rules between the two parties. There may be rules about any movement of money in the venue and there may be rules about movement of money in the band, but no rules exist between the two after the contract is complete.


The contrary to this is if the band gets 100% of the contracted pay, the BL feels bad because there was a small crowd, and without consulting the band, gives back $100. Is the venue owner responsible for the lack of communication in the band? If one of the other band members calls the venue owner and says the band was underpaid and the owner owes the band another $100, do you think the owner will immediately fork over another $100 bill?

 

[D.A.R.K.]

I like the idea here where you reply with either return it or put it toward the net one- tell the owner "whatever is best for the venue". If they won't book you then it's already over, tell them to pound sand.

 

[Nek07]

Pretty much is.

Really not, one is a bar, and 100$ should be nothing if it is runned properly, on the other hand, those 100$ is a good part of a lot of gig payment, see, not the same.

 

[red_rhino]

Personally, I would consideer that place burned, because if she made you feel guilty over money freely offered to you (instead of "my employe made a mistake"), she will probably talk you down anyway, so I would keep the money as a tip.

She sounds like a bit of a jerk, or at least someone with poor people skills. She may talk smack about you to other owners, but they probably think she's a bit of a jerk as well. Club owners don't all like each other. That said....

offering the $100 credit toward your next performance would be my first suggestion, see if that works. bars spill $100 in drinks a night

This is an excellent idea. Tell her the money has already been disbursed and you don't want to claw it back from the other band members. If she agrees, you're probably all good and everything works out. If she doesn't agree, that means she was unlikely to book you again anyway, so you might as well have the money for all your extra trouble. (Personally, I hate making nice with someone only to have them interpret it as a sign of weakness and continue to be a jerk.) Kicky's suggestion is a good one.

 

[Low Class]

If it was me I'd tell her to pound sand and find another gig. If anything she should take it from the paycheck of the person that gave it to you.

 

[Nek07]

It absolutely does matter if the manager wanted to overpay. That person is by proxy the representative of the venue and has been given the authority to complete the financial provisions of the contract.

If the person that has the authority to fulfill the obligations of the contract intentionally & knowingly gives extra money after the financial part of the contract has been met, it is not the responsibility of the band to know or care about the source of the additional money.

After the contract is “closed / completed” any money that changes hands either direction is not subject to any rules between the two parties. There may be rules about any movement of money in the venue and there may be rules about movement of money in the band, but no rules exist between the two after the contract is complete.


The contrary to this is if the band gets 100% of the contracted pay, the BL feels bad because there was a small crowd, and without consulting the band, gives back $100. Is the venue owner responsible for the lack of communication in the band? If one of the other band members calls the venue owner and says the band was underpaid and the owner owes the band another $100, do you think the owner will immediately fork over another $100 bill?

That is that, what is done is done and that 100$ is an issue between the owner and the manager. Having a tip is mostly handled this way, giving money on the side, so I would only say "thank you" in this situation, never ask why, because it is implicitly obviously a tip.
In french we have a say, "donner, c'est donner, reprendre, c'est voler", meaning once given, it is given, if you take back, you are a thief.