The person did comply with the contract, period, without question or argument, (unless the contract also forbade any tips of any amount given to the band by anyone).
Then, that person took action unrelated to the contract.
Last edited:
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Getting overpaid - owner wants it back
- Thread starter Runnerman
- Start date
The person did comply with the contract, period, without question or argument, (unless the contract also forbade any tips of any amount given to the band by anyone).
Then, that person took action unrelated to the contract.
There is a bunch here we don't know. You've obviously worked in the same professional"working band" environment I have. It takes time to build a successful band. Nowadays, only one screw up can tear it down. No matter what, its integrity. I realize this is a bar band situation but, it shouldn't matter. My question would be? How long has this gone on with the band deciding screw it or, has the money been returned? Maybe I missed that?
Is accepting more than the contracted amount a breach of contract, especially if that amount is given in cash? Paying less is a breach of contract and should not be accepted. Unless cash is stipulated on the contract, payment should be made via a trackable means. Cash is usually considered "under the table" and overpayment of $100 is usually recognized as a tip, especially with the rotation of folks in and out of the place. Guaranteed they racked up a lot of money with your performance.
Once I was once tossed a $100 bill by an audience member who requested we play "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell and The Drells. We gladly played it and played the f*** out of it for that extra C note.
Once I was once tossed a $100 bill by an audience member who requested we play "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell and The Drells. We gladly played it and played the f*** out of it for that extra C note.
Give the money back. Ethically you have no right to it.
Play the long game here. if you screw the club owner, he won't have you back. Club owners talk.
This is a small amount of money, it's not worth souring a relationship.
Consider this an investment in future shows
Play the long game here. if you screw the club owner, he won't have you back. Club owners talk.
This is a small amount of money, it's not worth souring a relationship.
Consider this an investment in future shows
Curious about the percentage of the contract the $100 would have amounted to. 10%, 25%, 50%.
It's really up to your band leader to deal with the situation and you should not stress about it.
It's really up to your band leader to deal with the situation and you should not stress about it.
FullumMusic
Commercial User
- Oct 13, 2022
- 2,008
- 5,683
- Disclosures
- Audio/Music software developer, contracted with a company you've heard of and deving my own stuff.
Unless one could argue if they handed them one stack of bills, it wasn't a second action unrelated to the contract. It was one physical act, as one physical transaction as payment for the contract with an incorrect amount.
It could be argued either way. If they really wanted to know their legal obligation, or if they want to have a lawyer figure out a loophole to keep $100, they can get one. Otherwise, again, all of our rule-lawyering and gotchas and rationalizations are just that. They're an attempt to justify keeping the money. But if I overpaid, or someone representing me overpaid for a contract to a person or business, i would hope they would honor the contract and return the overpayment.
If you're just looking to justify keeping the money, then there's no point in discussing otherwise. If you really wanted to, though, you could see arguments could be made both ways. And if it was me, and i wanted to be seen as someone who honors my contracts and is worth doing business with in the future, i'd return the overpayment.
I'd still point out that i'm returning it to honor the contract, and that getting the overpayment and then asking for it back was incredibly sketchy/gauche/weird/etc. And that the issue should really be between the owner and the manager, not us. But i'd do it anyway because i'd want to build/keep my reputation as someone to do business with. Again, if it was a few grand, not $100, maybe i would get the lawyers involved. But we're talking $100 split amongst the band.
That scenario sounds very much like the extra amount was paid by accident. The OP didn’t characterize the extra money was the result of an accident. My thoughts if it was;
Getting overpaid - owner wants it back
It was fair to assume it was a tip, but they called you, which confirms it was an oversight. Do the right thing.
I'm a little floored that several of you think keeping the money is an option. Accidents happen, and the manager made one. It's not your money, plain and simple. If you accidentally leave your amp next time and someone thinks you left it as a gift, are you okay if they keep it?
I agree. To be frank, having that "stick it to the owner" attitude in this industry is a surefire way to make sure you are labeled as difficult to work with and un-bookable. For example, I play the casino circuit in Atlantic City, where there are 2 or 3 booking agents that book for the entire city. The contracts that we get are very specific and detailed, and sometimes have rules that sound ridiculous (no dark blue jeans, suit jacket on stage, no baseball caps while loading in). I have seen bands on my own label get blacklisted for years from the entire strip just because a VP from the casino saw them wearing black sneakers when the contract said black boots/shoes. Many musicians with overinflated egos, especially in the cover industry, vastly overestimate their value to club owners. Cover bands and musicians are a dime a dozen, including incredibly talented ones. If you are looking for gigs that pay well ($1000+), there is lots of tough competition, meaning you need them more than they need you. From the owners perspective, they are hiring entertainment because they want to increase customer retention/sales in a way that is as hands off as possible. They want to pay you and then everything works without having to deal with any issues. The fact that the owner is honoring their original amount that they agreed to pay is notable in itself, especially since it is a bar gig rather than corporate. There have been many times, especially over COVID, where we were kept and given duo/trio gigs/as many gigs as possible because of our reputation for being flexible and professional. You are definitely going to deal with difficult people, but its always best not to take things personally, and to always choose the right battles to fight/hills to die on. Another important factor is being able to read the situation and properly assess who is in charge, what the chain of authority is, and where everyone is placed in it. A club owner overrides a bar manager in terms of authority and decision-making. For example, we have a venue that we play where the sound engineer is incredibly difficult to work with, miserable. He constantly complains and also doesn't know what he's doing. Even so, the owner of the place loves us because we keep the spot packed the entire night. Sometimes, if we know he's giving the wrong advice in terms of sound, or doing something wrong, we just politely/quietly do what we know is going to work. One time, he tried to make us cut our set short because he just wanted to go home early, we ignored and kept playing until our contracted time because that didn't come from management. Is he in charge of us technically? Yes. Is he the one who pays us, or whose opinion matters most? No. Regardless of his poopy attitude, we are pleasant, polite, and professional. For many who are in charge of paying, this makes a huge difference. To be fair, some venue owners have had bad experiences with unprofessional bands that have hardened them in the same way that some of us have been hardened by unprofessional club owners. In the long run, having an attitude about it is self fulfilling at best. Do you want to be right, or successful? That is the question to ask. If this is a hobby, or for fun, do what you want. If you are taking this seriously as a business/professional craft, soft skills and emotional intelligence go a very long way. In my experiences, building relationships and acting with integrity at all times have been the most important components of our success.
Well, if you think there is any chance that you may get repeat bookings there. Then the best thing to do is to go ahead and return the money. Making sure any future contract sets up rules as to what's expected of both your group and the club owner if it happens again.
In fact even if there isn't a chance of getting another gig there IMO you should still give back the money. If for no other reason than the employee who accidentally overpaid you could end up getting fired. TBH I'm surprised that the club owner asked for the $100 back. Because obviously it was not your fault that you got the extra money. You guys shouldn't be held liable for what was obviously an internal mistake at the club.
In fact even if there isn't a chance of getting another gig there IMO you should still give back the money. If for no other reason than the employee who accidentally overpaid you could end up getting fired. TBH I'm surprised that the club owner asked for the $100 back. Because obviously it was not your fault that you got the extra money. You guys shouldn't be held liable for what was obviously an internal mistake at the club.
It's possible there is a legal argument that you can keep the money. That said, give it back. 100%. There is no other good choice. It's not even worth this thread. Give it back.
I'd just give it back and explain that it was assumed a tip as that does happen from time to time. Mistakes happen, some people are very focused on their finances and someone involved doesn't want to walk away from the hundred bucks. Fine. I wouldn't try and "leverage" a gig out of it as I'd assume that'd be just as likely to result in never being booked there again as keeping the money. I understand the whole principle of "don't say sorry, they made the mistake and should've garnished wages/said sorry to YOU and let you keep it/ate the cost as the cost of their own miscommunication", but in my experience those sorts of folks usually are the bands that end up taking a "stand" over 100 bucks or a spicy negative comment from a venue/patron and get blackballed forever.
For example, there was a local band that had made their own posters for a gig, told friends, been geared up for it, but were then told by a bar that they had a calendar mixup and that they couldn't do that date. They'd double booked a much bigger act that night as well, and were trying to make the schedule work. The booker was apologetic and offered the following weekend so they could feasibly edit the promotional material, still get a gig etc etc. The singer went absolutely ballistic on social media about unprofessionalism and screencapped all the conversation onto facebook. Accusing the venue of not supporting "the scene" and saying they were just doing it because a bigger and better act came up. Is screwing up calendar bookings lame and not the bands fault? Yeah. Is it unprofessional and should the venue tried to make it work on the same date? Yeah. Do I get the principle of the matter and why the band were upset? Yeah.
Did that band end up never seeing another gig and disbanding a few months after the fact? You betcha. It wasn't just venues either. Our band and others were very frequently asked to help fill out a lineup for a gig and there was less than 0% chance that we or any of our sister bands were going to risk trying to bring those guys onto a bill if that's how they react to things going sideways.
For example, there was a local band that had made their own posters for a gig, told friends, been geared up for it, but were then told by a bar that they had a calendar mixup and that they couldn't do that date. They'd double booked a much bigger act that night as well, and were trying to make the schedule work. The booker was apologetic and offered the following weekend so they could feasibly edit the promotional material, still get a gig etc etc. The singer went absolutely ballistic on social media about unprofessionalism and screencapped all the conversation onto facebook. Accusing the venue of not supporting "the scene" and saying they were just doing it because a bigger and better act came up. Is screwing up calendar bookings lame and not the bands fault? Yeah. Is it unprofessional and should the venue tried to make it work on the same date? Yeah. Do I get the principle of the matter and why the band were upset? Yeah.
Did that band end up never seeing another gig and disbanding a few months after the fact? You betcha. It wasn't just venues either. Our band and others were very frequently asked to help fill out a lineup for a gig and there was less than 0% chance that we or any of our sister bands were going to risk trying to bring those guys onto a bill if that's how they react to things going sideways.
Um, not the same thing, not even close. Tipping a server is expected. A club tipping a band without saying anything? Not in 53 years of playing clubs, parties, events. When we’ve been tipped, we were told. Let’s be real.
No, they are only OK if the error is in THEIR favor.
I keep hearing this in Peter Garret's voice.
And yeah, if you keep it, you might burn the manager.
If you play there again, they will hopefully buy you guys a round.
lol this is what I thought.
Surprised some of you think the bandleader did something underhanded. I would def think, oh cool they paid me more, they liked us. From my experience working in entertainment tipping is pretty common.
I’m in the return the money camp because I don’t think it’s a big deal on either side. But people here talking legal arguments over $100 is a little funny.
