Getting overpaid - owner wants it back

[KenSmithFan]

Interesting perspective. Pure speculation though - but the OP definitely needs to get more info from the BL.

You are absolutely correct that I’m speculating on the motive. What is not speculation is that there was a contract that specified a specific amount and the BL accepted more than that amount without saying anything. I feel pretty safe in asserting that if the amount was less than the contract stated he would have said something.

 

[Low End Scum]

You are absolutely correct that I’m speculating on the motive. What is not speculation is that there was a contract that specified a specific amount and the BL accepted more than that amount without saying anything. I feel pretty safe in asserting that if the amount was less than the contract stated he would have said something.

It does make me wonder what was said to the BL if they were relaying that it was implied that the band did something wrong. Cause it could've gone a few different ways. Did the BL say they thought it was a tip and the manager scoffed at the idea and was judgemental? Could be. Was the BL a little defensive and that made the manager question the bands intent in keeping the money? Could be. Hopefully it was just the first and the manager was a bit holier than thou. I tend to hedge towards the idea of being easy to work with and following contracts (and tort law/the whole "a meeting of the minds" of a business deal thing) to avoid surprises.

 

[vvvmmm]

Respectfully, tort law is different (around here the TV ads are calling it, "injury law"), but yeah, "meeting of the minds", "unilateral mistake" are implicated ...

But the easiest and potentially most constructive way to deal with it is return it.

I'd do that in person, (say "no problem") and ask for future gigs.

And for the BL, next time, confirm - may not change the result when it's owner vs. manager (one may be looking for an excuse to fire or leave).

 

[Fynn]

Not very nice of your BL to just take more, than he was told you would get, and then not even ask if that was a mistake.
Reminds me of a time recently where I went to the gas station and the clerk gave me too much money back. He was so certain that it was the correct amount and I recounted twice and told him to check again. Then he noticed his mistake and I gave him the money back. I'm a student, I would take all the money I can get, but I'd feel bad when it's money that I haven't earned.
So you could argue that maybe you earned it because you pulled in a good crowd, and therefore deserve it, but managing a small establishment like that isn't a cake walk either, and you can't even be sure that the crowd came there for you guys specifically, or stayed/purchased because of you. Even if you think the owner was rude about it, doesn't mean that you guys have to be rude and petty about it.

 

[Sparkl]

This is a new one on me. We did a nice gig a few weeks ago. First time at the place. It was a warm spell that night here in NC. Club had the front doors open and a good crowd cycled in and out from the street, good vibes and a fun evening. After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

A couple days later the owner called and said my guy over paid you $100. What do you want to do about it? The BL just told her we thought you appreciated our playing and the crowd we brought in so we accepted it. She made him feel like we did something wrong and we owe her something. Do we? Should we offer to discount another gig?

Brutally honest here but if the club is fussing over 100$ over a gig that was apparently well populated and enjoyed... it's not much of a club then.

Don't know about how others feel but in my book usually business gets concluded when the hands shake. If I were to return the agreed upon money I would require/demand a very good counter offer. But in a club that hesitates to throw 100$ extra on the band, I wouldn't really count on that club too much. America is big, right? At least we in EU like to think so. Many opportunities and stuff. Go for it!

 

[HolmeBass]

It really comes down to if you want to play there again.

You now know the owner is a truly horrendous cheapskate. Opening this can of worms over $100 is patently ridiculous. As another poster noted, they lose $100 in spilled drinks and messed up food orders every night. If they are really that tight, that is a pretty bad sign in and of itself.

If you do want to play there again, return the $100 ASAP while booking your next gig. I would think you will have recouped the $100 after two or three more gigs - but I am no accountant.

I will say with an owner that cheap it will be hard to get more $ contracted up front. Unless you really want to play there again pretty badly, keep the $100 and play at other places.

 

[Lee Moses]

Surprised some of you think the bandleader did something underhanded. I would def think, oh cool they paid me more, they liked us. From my experience working in entertainment tipping is pretty common.

I don't think he did anything wrong in taking the money. I imagine I would assumed the same thing. But if he keeps the money after being told it's not his; yeah, that's slimy.

 

[Sparkl]

Not very nice of your BL to just take more, than he was told you would get, and then not even ask if that was a mistake.
Reminds me of a time recently where I went to the gas station and the clerk gave me too much money back. He was so certain that it was the correct amount and I recounted twice and told him to check again. Then he noticed his mistake and I gave him the money back. I'm a student, I would take all the money I can get, but I'd feel bad when it's money that I haven't earned.
So you could argue that maybe you earned it because you pulled in a good crowd, and therefore deserve it, but managing a small establishment like that isn't a cake walk either, and you can't even be sure that the crowd came there for you guys specifically, or stayed/purchased because of you. Even if you think the owner was rude about it, doesn't mean that you guys have to be rude and petty about it.

After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

Forgot to read through this part of the OP post?

 

[KenSmithFan]

It does make me wonder what was said to the BL if they were relaying that it was implied that the band did something wrong. Cause it could've gone a few different ways. Did the BL say they thought it was a tip and the manager scoffed at the idea and was judgemental? Could be. Was the BL a little defensive and that made the manager question the bands intent in keeping the money? Could be. Hopefully it was just the first and the manager was a bit holier than thou. I tend to hedge towards the idea of being easy to work with and following contracts (and tort law/the whole "a meeting of the minds" of a business deal thing) to avoid surprises.

Well, once he took the money without saying anything it’s hard to see how that ends well. I know I sound like a broken record, but I keep going back to my certainty that the BL would have spoken up if the amount was less than the contract stated.

He’s not to bright if he’s willing to burn that bridge for the $20 or $25 each that the band members probably got.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Who paid you? Were they in charge of paying you? If so, the owner should be talking to them. I'm guessing the club owner is not making enough and every penny counts. A tight wad IMHO.

 

[Fynn]

okay, firstly, taking a tip at a gig for $100 is not "something wrong" and there's no reason anyone in the band should have "known better"...

I think that depends on the situation. If that tip is 20% extra, then I would be very wary of that and definitely ask about it. If it's maybe 5%, then maybe not. Though I would still like to imagine that I would always ask about it, if there was any sort of discrepancy...

 

[Fynn]

Forgot to read through this part of the OP post?

That's common. I've never played a gig where someone from staff (or owner) there didn't tell us we did good. Besides, I read that as if they were talking to the bar manager. The bar manager is not the owner, and seemingly doesn't have the authority to just give an extra tip. Else the owner might just deduct that 100 from the bar managers pay. But if it's an honest mistake, then I can see how the owner would ask for the money back directly.

 

[Sparkl]

I don't think he did anything wrong in taking the money. I imagine I would assumed the same thing. But if he keeps the money after being told it's not his; yeah, that's slimy.

No offense but some of you guys don't seem to understand the business aspect here.

First of all, it's not the bands duty to inspect and analyze who in that club is holding the strings together when receiving payment. The manager apparently met them after the gig and offered the payment, coupled with compliments. It is very much normal to assume that the 100$ extra was given in good faith of thanking for a good gig and for a healthy crowd of people listening.

If anyone is to blame for this situation it's the club manager, who obviously did not communicate well with the club owner about appropriate payment headroom or if there even is any.

Yes, we can discuss whether paying back the hundred is appropriate or not, but it's not legally bonding in any way. From a legal perspective, if the club owner wants his money back, he/she will have to hit the club manager who issued the payment in the first place. It is what it is, the rest is just purely good will.

 

[Sparkl]

That's common. I've never played a gig where someone from staff (or owner) there didn't tell us we did good. Besides, I read that as if they were talking to the bar manager. The bar manager is not the owner, and seemingly doesn't have the authority to just give an extra tip. Else the owner might just deduct that 100 from the bar managers pay. But if it's an honest mistake, then I can see how the owner would ask for the money back directly.

You are from germany, right? I played hundreds of gigs in germany. There were quite a couple moments, especially on smaller band tours where club owners in germany extended their payment willingly because of a positive financial outcome of that evening. It happens more often than you think.

The bar manager is not the owner, and seemingly doesn't have the authority to just give an extra tip.

That is not your business to know. All you need to know is he is the person paying for your services. In EU you also know that any payment needs to be issued with a legal "rechnung" issued through a legal company for all the taxes later. If the payment is issued without one, it's not a legal payment anyways, in other words - as if the payment never occured. So, whos blame is it really then.

 

[db59]

I only see one answer

 

[ajschnitzelbank]

Um, not the same thing, not even close. Tipping a server is expected. A club tipping a band without saying anything? Not in 53 years of playing clubs, parties, events. When we’ve been tipped, we were told. Let’s be real.

Hmm. That’s a good point. I bet I am often/usually told when I’m being tipped for playing. I also am not typically handling the money. I know last time I hired a band I tipped $100 and didn’t explicitly mention it, perhaps I should have! Now I have to think back on if they asked me if I intended to tip them or not… (Who am I kidding I’m not gonna remember that.)

 

[Sparkl]

So how is it in the US - do such payments require a legal bill issue through a registered company or are you allowed to pay such things in cash up front, no bills, no record? How do you deal with income taxes?

 

[funkymonk13]

I don't think he did anything wrong in taking the money. I imagine I would assumed the same thing. But if he keeps the money after being told it's not his; yeah, that's slimy.

Don’t they say possession is 9/10s of the law?
I think asking for it back, given the context, was slimy.

but I agree with you. I woulda zelled the money back instantly

 

[Minimalist]

This is a new one on me. We did a nice gig a few weeks ago. First time at the place. It was a warm spell that night here in NC. Club had the front doors open and a good crowd cycled in and out from the street, good vibes and a fun evening. After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

A couple days later the owner called and said my guy over paid you $100. What do you want to do about it? The BL just told her we thought you appreciated our playing and the crowd we brought in so we accepted it. She made him feel like we did something wrong and we owe her something. Do we? Should we offer to discount another gig?

The manager seems like a good guy and I'd give it back just to make sure he's not in trouble. But I wouldn't want to play there again. The owner is a Richard.

 

[lermgalieu]

Yes, we can discuss whether paying back the hundred is appropriate or not, but it's not legally bonding in any way. From a legal perspective, if the club owner wants his money back, he/she will have to hit the club manager who issued the payment in the first place. It is what it is, the rest is just purely good will.

So what? The bottom line is that OP's BL should give the money back, and that in the club scene, good will is *everything*. It's not an afterthought, it's not "just" good will. It's literally the most important thing here.

PS: I am a lawyer. If you think it's a good idea to get in a pi$$ing match with a club owner over $100, I've got a bridge to sell you.