Getting overpaid - owner wants it back

[poppunk]

It's unclear to me how much this $100 was on top of the contract amount. Did I miss where that was stated?

As the contracted dollar amount goes up this seems increasingly minor for both sides.

 

[ajschnitzelbank]

Sorry, I'm calling BS on the BL. This happened to me in the same club TWICE. Each time I told the truth. If they had shorted you would the BL have just assumed that it was because the crowd was thin or left early? Of course not, they would say, "Hey, the contract says XXX dollars."

Your BL pulled a fast one and got caught. It's as simple as that.

Funny how so many people wave the contract around to make sure that they don't get cheated, but then, when the club makes a mistake, all of a sudden the contract disappears.

Um, what? I’ve given many a bartender $6 for a $5 beer while saying “thank you”, and not one once ever gave me a dollar back saying I overpaid. It was obviously a tip. And in the BL’s shoes, I certainly would have assumed it was a tip.

 

[JazznFunk]

If it was me I'd tell her to pound sand and find another gig. If anything she should take it from the paycheck of the person that gave it to you.

Technically, I think that's illegal. If anything, she should write it off as an expense and communicate better with all of her employees.

 

[gln1955]

Really not, one is a bar, and 100$ should be nothing if it is runned properly, on the other hand, those 100$ is a good part of a lot of gig payment, see, not the same.

Whining about $20-25 per band member which was not supposed to be paid anyway is petty.

I don't see why so many here would be willing to throw away what sounds like a pretty good gig over this minor incident. Sure the owner is being petty, but that's par for the course with venue owners and managers.

 

[alex1fly]

This is a new one on me. We did a nice gig a few weeks ago. First time at the place. It was a warm spell that night here in NC. Club had the front doors open and a good crowd cycled in and out from the street, good vibes and a fun evening. After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

A couple days later the owner called and said my guy over paid you $100. What do you want to do about it? The BL just told her we thought you appreciated our playing and the crowd we brought in so we accepted it. She made him feel like we did something wrong and we owe her something. Do we? Should we offer to discount another gig?

So it seems pretty clear that Talkbass wants to guide you into keeping the money. But step back. You got paid the contract amount and are being asked to refund $100 overpayment. They didn't pay you LESS than your contract amount - that would something to make a stand over. This extra $100 was a mistake that the owner caught when reviewing the books. So have them confirm a venmo or mailing address and refund the $100. Your other option is to what, make a lasting stink over a measly tip when your band is supposedly professional enough to have an actual contract for a gig? That second option has so much cognitive dissonance it makes my head hurt both as a performing musician and as someone that manages clients/vendors/payments/accounts/etc. The only way keeping the $100 makes sense to me is if your band members literally need it to eat.

That so many responders want you to "stick it to the club owner" is pretty baffling to be honest.

 

[tb-player]

This is a new one on me. We did a nice gig a few weeks ago. First time at the place. It was a warm spell that night here in NC. Club had the front doors open and a good crowd cycled in and out from the street, good vibes and a fun evening. After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

A couple days later the owner called and said my guy over paid you $100. What do you want to do about it? The BL just told her we thought you appreciated our playing and the crowd we brought in so we accepted it. She made him feel like we did something wrong and we owe her something. Do we? Should we offer to discount another gig?

Just send him this clip from the film "That Thing You Do!" It should clear things up.

 

[JazznFunk]

Whining about $20-25 per band member which was not supposed to be paid anyway is petty.

I don't see why so many here would be willing to throw away what sounds like a pretty good gig over this minor incident. Sure the owner is being petty, but that's par for the course with venue owners and managers.

Except it doesn't sound like a 'pretty good gig.' The OP stated earlier that they usually only hire solo acts and don't pay them that much to begin with, and they offered a discounted rate to the venue in order to get a gig there. So not only is the venue cheap in general, they're attempting to put blame for this situation back on the band instead of handling it internally. There are some unanswered questions for sure, but this doesn't sound like a venue or gig to lose sleep over in terms of rebooking, especially now that the waters have been muddied by the questionable conduct of the owner in the wake of this situation. YMMV.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Of course. But this wasn't an "accident", it was clearly a tip.

1. Not necessarily. Person only said they loved how they played.

2. We don't know if the person was authorized to do this a tip even if he/she wanted.

3. They had a contract.

People here complain when a venue owner won't honor an agreement, oral or otherwise, but feel it's OK for the band not to honor the agreement. I don't get it.

 

[bearhart74]

It was an honest mistake-

IF

 

[JazznFunk]

So it seems pretty clear that Talkbass wants to guide you into keeping the money. But step back. You got paid the contract amount and are being asked to refund $100 overpayment. They didn't pay you LESS than your contract amount - that would something to make a stand over. This extra $100 was a mistake that the owner caught when reviewing the books. So have them confirm a venmo or mailing address and refund the $100. Your other option is to what, make a lasting stink over a measly tip when your band is supposedly professional enough to have an actual contract for a gig? That second option has so much cognitive dissonance it makes my head hurt both as a performing musician and as someone that manages clients/vendors/payments/accounts/etc. The only way keeping the $100 makes sense to me is if your band members literally need it to eat.

That so many responders want you to "stick it to the club owner" is pretty baffling to be honest.

The only way to fully clear this up is to have the owner, MOD, and the OP in the same room to discuss exactly what was said that night.

After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us.

Based on that language alone, I would not have questioned the extra amount. We've gotten tips from the venue before, especially if we had an especially good night, and similar language was used when the cash was handed over.

Here's where I would play devil's advocate - in most bands I play with, who get paid in cash, we distribute the money before we all disperse for the evening. So if the money was counted and divided immediately, and the overage was discovered at that time, then it could have been addressed right then and there. If the cash isn't getting disbursed until days later, then it might not get noticed immediately. We don't know much time passed between the cash getting handed over and when everyone got paid.

 

[Wesley R]

If I was the BL, I would have coughed up a hundo in a heart beat, and delivered it in person, and asked for future bookings. This would let me know wether or not to bother with them.

My 30 year old reaction may not have been as mature. Probably would have walked in to the owners office, tossed down the hundo, shook my head disapprovingly, muttered, sad, just sad and walked away.

 

[Slevage]

IF

For $100, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

 

[bearhart74]

For $100, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

thats fair.. but just once.

 

[salmon256]

While I love to be devil's' advocate, and I know nothing about the personality of the bar owner,

Honestly would give it back. You don't know who they know and what other places you may want to play at knows. It would suck have your band slander and ruin your rep if they take it the wrong way. I say you guys are not at fault at all, it was a big misunderstanding.

As a person working on their paralegal certification, you never know what crazy ways they also can come back especially with a contract...

 

[dalkowski]

Give the money back and wish the bar manager all the best in their next bar management job.

 

[KenD]

An incredibly small mind attitude from the owner but give it back and note accordingly for future reference: i.e., review your standard booking contract and rider to make sure they are crystal clear and reliable.

Once a weasel, always a weasel.

 

[groovepump]

I don't understand why this is even a question for the band.
There was a contract.
A mistake was made in paying.
Just like if your bank accidentally dumped $100 into your account, they WILL take it back.
And you can't say anything about it. It wasn't YOUR money.
And the idea that the bar owner is being petty--- what about the band? A group of 4 people are
in a twist over each person getting $25 less by giving the bar owner their over-payment back?
$25 ????
Really??
The entire issue would have been avoided by the BL clarifying the overpayment immediately when being paid, since the money was above the contracted, expected amount.

 

[MoireBass]

It's too bad musicians NEVER have any leverage. I see this time and time again on here.

And it will remain that way as long as there is no minimum standard, as long as anyone can call themselves a musician, no matter how unskilled -- and undercut everyone else's price. Compare that to being an engineer, a doctor, or a lawyer, who have had to demonstrate significant knowledge and ability to earn that degree.

There used to be a musician's union where you had to demonstrate a certain degree of competence on your instrument (which most rock'n'roll guitarists couldn't pass since reading was part of it) to be considered for employment. Instead, we've got bozos who complain how terribly hard it is to learn the names of the notes yet are still allowed to call themselves musicians.

 

[KellyC]

This is a new one on me. We did a nice gig a few weeks ago. First time at the place. It was a warm spell that night here in NC. Club had the front doors open and a good crowd cycled in and out from the street, good vibes and a fun evening. After load out the bar manager paid our BL and gave him $100 more than was agreed on with the club owner. Said he loved our playing and thanked us. BL thought...that's pretty cool, and since we had pulled a good crowd he didn't think anything of it and took the cash.

A couple days later the owner called and said my guy over paid you $100. What do you want to do about it? The BL just told her we thought you appreciated our playing and the crowd we brought in so we accepted it. She made him feel like we did something wrong and we owe her something. Do we? Should we offer to discount another gig?

If there was a contract, and the owner wants to be a d!ck about it, you pay the money back.
That's why there's a contract, so that there are no misunderstandings.

 

[FullumMusic]

It absolutely does matter if the manager wanted to overpay. That person is by proxy the representative of the venue and has been given the authority to complete the financial provisions of the contract.

If the person that has the authority to fulfill the obligations of the contract intentionally & knowingly gives extra money after the financial part of the contract has been met, it is not the responsibility of the band to know or care about the source of the additional money.

After the contract is “closed / completed” any money that changes hands either direction is not subject to any rules between the two parties. There may be rules about any movement of money in the venue and there may be rules about movement of money in the band, but no rules exist between the two after the contract is complete.


The contrary to this is if the band gets 100% of the contracted pay, the BL feels bad because there was a small crowd, and without consulting the band, gives back $100. Is the venue owner responsible for the lack of communication in the band? If one of the other band members calls the venue owner and says the band was underpaid and the owner owes the band another $100, do you think the owner will immediately fork over another $100 bill?

Even if that person was the by-proxy representative of the venue, and has been given to complete the financial provision of the contract, then they must comply with the contract. If they had the authority to change the contract, the contract would still need to be modified and signed by all parties. But it wasn't. Cash was handed over without amending the contract. Under that argument, the manager could decide to underpay and it somehow overrides the contract.

It doesn't really matter if we think a venue would or wouldn't fork over the $100 of an Underpayment. It's a hypothetical situation, and in that hypothetical situation, overpayment or underpayment, the only leg either party has to stand on is what is stipulated in the contract. I don't have a copy of the contract. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if there's a line item that stipulates at what moment the contract is closed or completed. All i know is there was a contract that described the band's and bar's responsibilities. Both sides should honor it.

If there was no contract, and the manager overpaid on purpose, the band could tell the owner to deal with the manager. It's not their problem. But if it's in the contract, honor the contract even if we don't like giving back money, or even if some venues out there might try to weasel out of underpayments, or even if we can sit here and look for every rationalization, excuse, gotcha, rule-lawyering, exception, and hypothetical reason to keep the money.

The contract is there to protect both parties and both parties should abide by it. If we look for every exception to honoring contracts when it favors us, what ground do we have to stand on to expect others to honor their contracts with us? Why even make contracts at all?

I dunno. All the arguments to keep the money seem like they're coming from ways to justify keeping it, and not really good-faith business. The manager made a mistake; the band and venue have a contract with an explicit payment number; honoring that number and honoring the contract seems like it would be the right thing to do instead of finding all the loopholes to justify keeping it.

And if they really wanted to find loopholes or gotchas to justify keeping it, they could ask a lawyer to review the contract and payment and tell them whether or not it's rightfully theirs, not us schmos on TB. We're not contract lawyers (except those of us who are actually contract lawyers. There's probably at least a few contract lawyers who are also bassists on TB)