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Gibson Basses - Now Even More Disappointing?

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#41
AlmightyPancake said:
There's not one sane global economist who would argue that exporting jobs is a symptom of the free market. That's ignorant middle-school level economic thinking.
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he admits he has lost the argument when he strikes the first blow! (see above)

you just can't lay off personal attack, can you?

i never once made a personal attack on anybody here, yet you feel free to do it to me.

i take this as meaning you don't have any reasoned response. let me state again, for the record:

the company and the the worker are equal. here is the job, take it or leave it. here are my terms for working, take them or leave them.

i am sorry if you don't LIKE it, but that is just the way it is. i will say again, if you don't think that is fair, start your own company and run it how you want.

davesignatureII.gif
 
#43
All of the pettiness aside, we have never had an unfettered free market. Some entity always interferes, distorts the market, and moves on. Human nature. So Dave could be right, or totally wrong. I think wrong, but he's welcome to his opinion and probably comes by it honestly. We should probably not insult him in the meantime. We're not 6 string players, are we?
 
#44
In every decade I've seen finishes on 3K Gibsons that made me wonder, "How is it that Epiphone and Cort can put nearly flawless finishes on an $800 dollar guitar then why can't you put one on the 3k Les Paul."

For me there's two real difference between Gibson and Fender.

1. Go to NAMM. Gibson and Fender are always right above each other in the ballrooms. At gibson it's jowly, paunchy guys in blue suits and the booth is closed to anyone who is not an authorized dealer. Now remember, I'm not some dreamy eyed kid on a guest badge from a music store; I'm a 50 something guy whose business has been a NAMM member for 24 years. I wear a buyers badge and the booth is still closed to me.

Down one flight and Fenders doors are wide open. Factory guys and indie reps are in Bowling and Hawaiian shirts. I ask one of them, "Is this the Eric Johnson Strat?" He says, "Yeah, it is, why don't you try it." Before I can answer it's off the wall and plugged into a custom shop tube amp. Year after year I see it. Fender's corporate philosophy is "Hey, it's Rock and Roll! We can make money and still have fun." Gibson, "Excuse me sir, are you an authorized dealer?.

The other big difference I see, Gibson buys companies and kills them. Trace Elliot. Oberheim. Michael Tobias basses. Dobro etc. Fender buys companies and lets them live. Guild, SWR, Sunn, Charvel/Jackson, Tacoma, Gretsch, Hamer, well, they seem to be falling by the wayside but still.

Mugre
 
#45
jlane72t said:
I don't think that's really true, as the general opinion seems to be that QC was awful for both Fender and Gibson for most of the 70s thru at least the early 80s and it didn't "self-correct" then, they still sold tons of instruments for many years.
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Sure it did. Both Fender and Gibson nearly collapsed near the end of this time period, and these companies left a HUGE opening for other musical instrument companies to grab market share.

Many of the bass brands we're familiar with today got their foot in the door during this era.
 
#46
Lonesomedave said:
as far as the wood... well, that remains to be sorted out, i personally don't believe Gibson's wood is anymore illegal than those other companies...
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Then you haven't read the government affidavits.

They've got internal Gibson emails talking to the guy they bought the wood from about getting a supply of "greymarket" timber out of a country they knew didn't allow export... and that was just the previous time they got dinged.
 
#47
smcd said:
I think I misinterpreted your earlier response. Thus, I retract my statement.
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Legattabass said:
All of the pettiness aside, we have never had an unfettered free market. Some entity always interferes, distorts the market, and moves on. Human nature. So Dave could be right, or totally wrong. I think wrong, but he's welcome to his opinion and probably comes by it honestly. We should probably not insult him in the meantime. We're not 6 string players, are we?
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hey, no harm, no fouls, buddies.

Leggatabass, i think maybe what you mean by "wrong" is "i don't want it to be that way" (and forgive me if i am putting words in your mouth, because i do not want to do that).

unfortunately, the proof that I am right is right before all of our eyes. the jobs are moving to other countries every day. do you think they want to do that? maybe so, i don't know... but i do know that putting a bunch of extra demands on companies will only exacerbate the problem.

davesignatureII.gif
 
#48
aborgman said:
Then you haven't read the government affidavits.

They've got internal Gibson emails talking to the guy they bought the wood from about getting a supply of "greymarket" timber out of a country they knew didn't allow export... and that was just the previous time they got dinged.
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maybe so, and i stand to be corrected, but how do you know all the other companies aren't doing it too?

not excusing gibson if they have broken the law, but just raising the question

davesignatureII.gif
 
#49
Lonesomedave said:
hey, no harm, no fouls, buddies.

Leggatabass, i think maybe what you mean by "wrong" is "i don't want it to be that way" (and forgive me if i am putting words in your mouth, because i do not want to do that).

unfortunately, the proof that I am right is right before all of our eyes. the jobs are moving to other countries every day. do you think they want to do that? maybe so, i don't know... but i do know that putting a bunch of extra demands on companies will only exacerbate the problem.

davesignatureII.gif
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What don't I want, a healthy market where employers are forced by competition to be generous and workers have options at all levels of employment? I don't want a trade deficit in our favor? I don't want ethics being a component of competition?

Of course I want all that. You are guilty of putting words in my mouth. :D

This is a joke I like on the topic of free market, libertarianism, government, etc:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

I think you come by your opinions honestly. And I don't think what you want is wrong. But I don't think you (and other people with opinions like yours) know the way to get there, or know if that world is even possible.

But hey, who am I, follow your gut and vote appropriately. Thats your right :)
 
#53
AHEM...I think Gibson is a poorly managed company that has managed to remain competitive despite unergonomic, overpriced products because they buy out competition and nurture an unrealistic cache in the minds of impressionable, nostalgic players.

And I think the bass in question is an example of that.

Sorry mods.
 
#54
Lonesomedave said:
i never once made a personal attack on anybody here, yet you feel free to do it to me.

i take this as meaning you don't have any reasoned response
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My reasoned response is from years of studying economics, practical and theoretical. You've ignored it and continue to blather about "free market" and "equality of workers," which are fundamentally exclusive terms.

I find your posts insulting, even though you're not personally attacking me. To sit back in your (probably) comfy desk chair as you browse a source of infinite information discussing the merits or demerits of a company producing goods which are not necessary for everyday life and stomp around saying that the free market should be allowed to treat its workers like garbage... well, that strikes me as being fairly clueless to what it is that got you to the situation you are now.

You may not have insulted me directly, but I come from a past that consisted of working for abusive employers bent on keeping their employees through intimidation and scare tactics. I eventually did find another path in life, and the only reason another path existed was because there ARE companies out there that don't resort to the tactics of the large corporations. I take it as a personal affront when you insinuate that I was an idiot for working under terrible employers for so long, or that it was as simple as me "getting another job."

So if you want to have an economics discussion, by all means let's have one instead of ignoring it and saying "hey, i'm just an innocent dude believing what I believe!" and throwing idioms at me as though that somehow legitimizes your stance. Otherwise, I'm going to have to say you're objectively wrong about how the free market works.
 
#55
Legattabass said:
AHEM...I think Gibson is a poorly managed company that has managed to remain competitive despite unergonomic, overpriced products because they buy out competition and nurture an unrealistic cache in the minds of impressionable, nostalgic players.

And I think the bass in question is an example of that.

Sorry mods.
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not to mention pi**-poor quality control... if all the posts are to be believed.

i hope they get their act straightened out. as i said, i have an old EB-3, and it is absolutely marvelous. i would hate to see them go the way of the dinosaur because they changed that.

davesignatureII.gif
 
#56
Lonesomedave said:
well, let's see if they have been caught doing it twice. i think it's awful coincidental.... until then, the jury is out, but I think it's political.
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2009 - Ebony from Madagascar
2011 - Rosewood from India

Two different raids, seizing woods potentially illegally sourced. I only say potentially because they haven't been charged yet. The affidavits and evidence cited within are pretty clear that they were engaging in at least mildly-illicit activities while importing.

But I think it all gets back to their poor QC. Their fretboards are usually 5.95 mm (at least replacements from Stew Mac, etc), and the import guidelines in the latest affidavit specify 6mm being the thickness break-point for legal vs illegal (>6mm is not allowable, <6mm is). They were getting 10mm planks. I'm venturing a guess, but with QC issues as bad as they've apparently been having maybe they were trying to increase their room for error when cutting fretboards. Just a guess, but I'm trying to keep it on topic ;)

On the madagascar ebony side of things I think it was a different story. They were getting wood that couldn't be verified as legally harvested and they knew it, according to internal emails. Juszkiewicz was removed (or took a Invalid Link Removed depending on who writes the article) from the board of the Rainforest Alliance after that bust so I'm sure there is some merit to the claim.

Either way, they've been making terrible basses for years, so I don't know why they'd stop now. I like how my G3 plays, but I definitely understand why it was a short-lived product.
 
#58
I'm not sure about Madagascar, but it's very possible Gibson may have done nothing wrong in importing wood from India. According to this article, it's the powerful European wood broking lobby which is behind the effort to keep Gibson from getting Indian wood. Indian wood exporters are trying to resolve the issue by working out with the Indian government the classification issue over exports. I've been following this Gibson story for weeks and this is the first time I've seen anything from the perspective of the Indian wood exporters.


Invalid Link Removed
 
#59
:cool:

There is a huge difference between early 50's & 60's Gibson Basses.
And what's being made now.
I have a 1960 EBO that plays wonderful, and sounds like the voice of god.
One of the best sounding pickups I've ever heard.
 
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