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Gigging thoughts after 30 years playing live
- Thread starter Timmy-Watts
- Start date
I think I know good tone and I try to be conscientious. Our gigs currently cocktail/dinner, then balls out dance music. The dance sets are at a volume that in a big cavernous room it just doesn’t matter. Best tone possible, and you’re still only as good at the reverb and quirks of the room.
Not much to add, except my love/hate relationship with large outdoor venues. It's a trip playing for a thousand people, and a drag because even with a good crew it was always hard for me to hear everyone else through the monitors. And it didn't take long to realize that out front, we probably sounded like every other band in western North Carolina: Kick drum first, booming bass second, guitars third, vocals fourth, and if you were a horn player, only the forlorn hope that when it was time for your solo the person behind the board would look up and notice you.
In 2015, I joined a band that had its own sound guy. He went everywhere we did, including places with house sound. He spoiled me rotten, and it was tough sledding for a while when he finally retired.
In 2015, I joined a band that had its own sound guy. He went everywhere we did, including places with house sound. He spoiled me rotten, and it was tough sledding for a while when he finally retired.
Yes I've fought these exact issues for decades. Two revelations for me, both occurring about 12 years ago. I simultaneously switched to flats, after playing rounds since Christ was a corporal, and I went low powered tube amps after playing solid state since day 1. First, unlike rounds, the flats don't disappear as soon as cymbals or guitars start playing. The initial thump of the flat wound attack and the relatively low sustain allows for a dominant bass without it being overpowering. Second, to my ear the harmonics added by the power tubes before they reach breakup adds a "halo" to the bass that makes it distinct in the mix but again without being overpowering. Pushing the tube amp to this point, if you hear the bass soloed it is obviously distorted, but in ensemble it has a pure, round quality. The advantage of the low powered tube amps is I can push the power tubes to this point at a very reasonable volume. I am now playing medium and large stages with my 50 and 100 watt tube rigs and flats, and my bass is more distinct and present than when I was blowing 500+ solid state watts with rounds. Also, in my experience this effect isn't achieved with tube overdrive from a pedal or preamp and a solid state amp, at least not nearly to the same degree. The power tube distortion is a much different animal than preamp tube distortion. Also just to be clear, I am not going for a distorted sound. As I said, when you're hitting the sweet spot, the bass in ensemble does not sound distorted. But once you learn to play the amp, you can get it to the point that you can push it into breakup just by digging in a little harder, then back off and there's your round tone (at least your ears tells you it's round). Also just to say, I don't use any pedals. Another side benefit of pushing the power tubes like this is they enter into a really nice (if it's a well designed tube amp) self-compression that doesn't just beat pedals, it rivals studio compressors.
So the upshot is, I'm now 71 years old, and I'm happily schlepping tube bass amps around and getting the best sound I've ever had.
Must agree 100% with everything here…….………..and now shop for a tube amp god da…. !
I found that acknowledging what is out of my control and letting go was tremendously liberating.
And money saving. Decent bass, decent rig and I'm good enuff. Time to focus on music.
Yes, it's rare to experience really good sound on a gig. When you do, I think it's usually the result of an unplanned gestalt. However good gear does matter, and I am pretty picky about my bass, amp, and cab.
I adopted an approach to mitigate the problem with acoustics. First a bit of background. My rig only serves as my personal monitor, so I set it up to try and get the best possible sound at the lowest volume. The idea is to hear as well as possible while minimizing how much sound my rig contributes to the mayhem in the room I like a lot of clarity and focus, so this means I really need to hear the mids and highs.
I like big fat lows as much as the next bassist, but I often find it's necessary to strike a compromise between clarity and fat. Essentially I back off the lows until I get the minimal amount of clarity and focus that I find acceptable. There are limits of course...in some acoustic spaces, you can turn the bass control completely down and the sound still sucks. Sometimes the solution is to turn the volume down and act like it sounds great.
I usually elevated my Eden D210XLT cab to about waist level and tilted it back (vertically) to aim at my ears. This ensured I heard the full range of the cab and also seemed to thin and tighten the low end a bit.
I usually didn't like adding bass to my wedge monitors, unless they were high passed so they did not fight with the low end coming from my rig. Often the backwash coming off the subs did a lot of damage to my stage sound, and I feel that running a leaner sound through my amp sometimes helped. Frequently the sound sucked and I learned to accept it and make do...because there was no reasonable fix.
For awhile, I ran a pair of Galaxy Audio HotSpots as my vocal monitors. They were placed left and right in front of me at about arms reach. They formed a triangle with the D210XLT, and I stood in the middle. During setup, I adjusted the spacing of the cabs so it created the sensation that I was surrounding by the sound field. If I stepped a foot or so in any direction the illusion would collapse.
My monitor mix ran through my rack rig (Ashley MX508 mixer with a QSC power amp) so I had control over the level. The monitor mix was full band minus bass. Usually I did not add bass to the monitors, except when the acoustic were truly awful; for example when we played in gyms, aircraft hangars, etc. When I did add bass to my monitor mix, it just added a bit of clarity in the mids...HotSpots do not produce any significant low end.
I adopted an approach to mitigate the problem with acoustics. First a bit of background. My rig only serves as my personal monitor, so I set it up to try and get the best possible sound at the lowest volume. The idea is to hear as well as possible while minimizing how much sound my rig contributes to the mayhem in the room I like a lot of clarity and focus, so this means I really need to hear the mids and highs.
I like big fat lows as much as the next bassist, but I often find it's necessary to strike a compromise between clarity and fat. Essentially I back off the lows until I get the minimal amount of clarity and focus that I find acceptable. There are limits of course...in some acoustic spaces, you can turn the bass control completely down and the sound still sucks. Sometimes the solution is to turn the volume down and act like it sounds great.
I usually elevated my Eden D210XLT cab to about waist level and tilted it back (vertically) to aim at my ears. This ensured I heard the full range of the cab and also seemed to thin and tighten the low end a bit.
I usually didn't like adding bass to my wedge monitors, unless they were high passed so they did not fight with the low end coming from my rig. Often the backwash coming off the subs did a lot of damage to my stage sound, and I feel that running a leaner sound through my amp sometimes helped. Frequently the sound sucked and I learned to accept it and make do...because there was no reasonable fix.
For awhile, I ran a pair of Galaxy Audio HotSpots as my vocal monitors. They were placed left and right in front of me at about arms reach. They formed a triangle with the D210XLT, and I stood in the middle. During setup, I adjusted the spacing of the cabs so it created the sensation that I was surrounding by the sound field. If I stepped a foot or so in any direction the illusion would collapse.
My monitor mix ran through my rack rig (Ashley MX508 mixer with a QSC power amp) so I had control over the level. The monitor mix was full band minus bass. Usually I did not add bass to the monitors, except when the acoustic were truly awful; for example when we played in gyms, aircraft hangars, etc. When I did add bass to my monitor mix, it just added a bit of clarity in the mids...HotSpots do not produce any significant low end.
I've only been playing bass for about 8 years now, but I've been able to benefit from the collective experience of the thousands upon thousands of gigs TB members have been on, on both sides of the mixing desk.
As such, I've had pretty good results from day one, and haven't had any absolutely terrible experiences. It's also included a few transitions into different genres, and having to change gear/tone up a few times to achieve the desired result.
My biggest growing pain as a guitarist-turned-bassist was accepting that the DI was more important than my amp. I struggled for awhile trying to get my amp tone into FOH before accepting it was a loosing battle, and once I progressed beyond that things got better for me.
For me, new-ish roundwounds on a passive bass into DI worked really well with relatively low gain guitars. AC/DC level up to around pop punk. I found these guitars left me a lot of space, and that the nuances of a passive Jazz or P could cut through in that kind of mix.
Once the guitars started getting bigger and heavier (think Metallica) I started having problems getting enough cut out of a passive and switched to EMGs through a BDDI. Aggressive music calls for aggressive bass tone, and the added harmonics from the BDDI helped fill my bass tone out.
My stage amp (SVT) is generally just a personal monitor, although occasionally it'll get mic'd and blended with the BDDI. My HPF is an 810E.
I try not to overthink FOH, try to keep things as simple as possible, and aim to give him as much frequency to work with as I can.
As such, I've had pretty good results from day one, and haven't had any absolutely terrible experiences. It's also included a few transitions into different genres, and having to change gear/tone up a few times to achieve the desired result.
My biggest growing pain as a guitarist-turned-bassist was accepting that the DI was more important than my amp. I struggled for awhile trying to get my amp tone into FOH before accepting it was a loosing battle, and once I progressed beyond that things got better for me.
For me, new-ish roundwounds on a passive bass into DI worked really well with relatively low gain guitars. AC/DC level up to around pop punk. I found these guitars left me a lot of space, and that the nuances of a passive Jazz or P could cut through in that kind of mix.
Once the guitars started getting bigger and heavier (think Metallica) I started having problems getting enough cut out of a passive and switched to EMGs through a BDDI. Aggressive music calls for aggressive bass tone, and the added harmonics from the BDDI helped fill my bass tone out.
My stage amp (SVT) is generally just a personal monitor, although occasionally it'll get mic'd and blended with the BDDI. My HPF is an 810E.
I try not to overthink FOH, try to keep things as simple as possible, and aim to give him as much frequency to work with as I can.
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Although your gig numbers dwarf my own, my experience has been that there are venues where nothing sounds good no matter what, but there are also venues that seem like caverns but can host good quality sound production as long as the music isn't too loud. Music that breathes a little seems easier to dial in.
As for loud rock music, I've been in large venues and amphitheaters allegedly designed for musical performance, watching big stars with elite backing bands and full time dedicated sound engineers, and it still takes them 3-4 songs to get the mix dialed in from where it sounded good at sound check to where it sounds reasonably ok after the venue fills up with bodies. Loud cacophonies never sound that great live IMO.
But I also once saw Van Morrison perform at the Chicago Opera House about 25 years ago, and the sound and acoustics were so perfect that I could hear him snapping his fingers from way up in the balcony seats.
As for loud rock music, I've been in large venues and amphitheaters allegedly designed for musical performance, watching big stars with elite backing bands and full time dedicated sound engineers, and it still takes them 3-4 songs to get the mix dialed in from where it sounded good at sound check to where it sounds reasonably ok after the venue fills up with bodies. Loud cacophonies never sound that great live IMO.
But I also once saw Van Morrison perform at the Chicago Opera House about 25 years ago, and the sound and acoustics were so perfect that I could hear him snapping his fingers from way up in the balcony seats.
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Interesting conjuncture, reading. I'll add my own.
Since I began gigging, I have always used passive, fretted, four-string, basses. In fact, for most of my "experience," I used a custom Carvin LB50, through twin SVT810's, and solid-state Carvin head, with zero effects. For the most part, we had our own PA system, and did our own sound engineering (only went DI, once, into a very expensive House rig, and it sounded fantastic!). Loved my tone, and it stood well in the trio, regardless of the venue (house parties, to 1,400 seat arenas). It was not until I introduced some effects, at which point, people said I dropped out of the mix. Back to simple, and have been there ever since.
I now play a fretless Jazz, exclusively, and I have never had less than a 6X10 (we do have these things called Dollies, you know). Don't see any reason to change, save a I have added a HPF, just to keep on top of things.
Since I began gigging, I have always used passive, fretted, four-string, basses. In fact, for most of my "experience," I used a custom Carvin LB50, through twin SVT810's, and solid-state Carvin head, with zero effects. For the most part, we had our own PA system, and did our own sound engineering (only went DI, once, into a very expensive House rig, and it sounded fantastic!). Loved my tone, and it stood well in the trio, regardless of the venue (house parties, to 1,400 seat arenas). It was not until I introduced some effects, at which point, people said I dropped out of the mix. Back to simple, and have been there ever since.
I now play a fretless Jazz, exclusively, and I have never had less than a 6X10 (we do have these things called Dollies, you know). Don't see any reason to change, save a I have added a HPF, just to keep on top of things.
I've learnt to adjust to the room and live with whatever happens. I keep things simple (both playing and equipment) which helps with bad rooms. The more things in the signal chain, the more variables and the more that can go wrong.
I go for a clean tone with enough volume to be heard on stage and let the FOH crew manage how the bass sounds out front.
I go for a clean tone with enough volume to be heard on stage and let the FOH crew manage how the bass sounds out front.
I'm headed for 50 years. I've probably played the same amount if not more gigs as OP. Congrats to those old rockers! Everything has changed. Venues, a bunch have disappeared! Not many 4 hour gigs anymore. Only 1 night a week instead of a month full of weekends in the same place. 2 - 3 hours is getting to be the normal gig time.
Seems like you load in and immediately load out. People had fun playing together instead of bitching about everything. Today instead of staying simple like back in the day, it's now how many pedals can I get on a sheet of plywood in front of me. Makes me grin when a pedal board looks like a space ship. To each their own.
IEMs, tried them, nope don't like em, don't need them. My whole band doesn't like them. Whatever floats your boat. We still play plenty setup just like we always have. We are a popular band. FOH or I run sound on stage depends on the venue. I play my game and don't worry if there is a bass player at a gig. Never had a complaint from anyone. If I'm running sound, I do sound checks out front . Then I know what's going on, no guessing.
Tone, someone said here that once the music starts it's irrelevant, true to a point. I've played 3 or 4 rigs most of my career. When I toured it was Fender, it was supplied, the equipment wasn't ours, OK. I played a Fender Jazz 4 on tour. Now I play 3 basses, all 5s and 6s, and not a one is a Fender. After I came off the road, equipment was Peavey. GK, and Hartke.
I use 3 pedals selectively. There is so much difference between then and now. Us old dogs played the best of times. I try to stay up with no one. I use what works. Thing of it is, I'm still playing and having fun. When the fun leaves it's time to retire! Keep playing!
Seems like you load in and immediately load out. People had fun playing together instead of bitching about everything. Today instead of staying simple like back in the day, it's now how many pedals can I get on a sheet of plywood in front of me. Makes me grin when a pedal board looks like a space ship. To each their own.
IEMs, tried them, nope don't like em, don't need them. My whole band doesn't like them. Whatever floats your boat. We still play plenty setup just like we always have. We are a popular band. FOH or I run sound on stage depends on the venue. I play my game and don't worry if there is a bass player at a gig. Never had a complaint from anyone. If I'm running sound, I do sound checks out front . Then I know what's going on, no guessing.
Tone, someone said here that once the music starts it's irrelevant, true to a point. I've played 3 or 4 rigs most of my career. When I toured it was Fender, it was supplied, the equipment wasn't ours, OK. I played a Fender Jazz 4 on tour. Now I play 3 basses, all 5s and 6s, and not a one is a Fender. After I came off the road, equipment was Peavey. GK, and Hartke.
I use 3 pedals selectively. There is so much difference between then and now. Us old dogs played the best of times. I try to stay up with no one. I use what works. Thing of it is, I'm still playing and having fun. When the fun leaves it's time to retire! Keep playing!
Years of reading TB threads is worth it just for gems of wisdom and experience like this. Thank you @Timmy-Watts
Great thread mang! Whoa that's a s@#$ ton of gigs under your belt! I played my first paid gig in May of 2002, so I'm a little behind ya. But I've been a weekend warrior (and a pro in many capacities) since then, on both upright and electric. I've got some thoughts..
First, I agree with a lot of what you said. Especially that most venues (and I would actually argue that the smaller rooms are worse!) are sonic challenges. AND that your "bedroom tone" doesn't matter once you plug in on stage or on the floor or wherever you're sitting your amp! I believe you can control that to a large extent tho with room filters. Bad rooms have one terrible frequency, and the worst rooms tend to have two. You've got an AI amp...do yours have the sweepable feedback filter? Those are LIFE CHANGING when you notch that feedback frequency out. And every room has one. Also, a good high pass will do the rest (and just turning the damn low end down. I've had to remind myself that over and over haha).
Also, by your own logic, gear matters. A LOT! Haha I'm busting your chops here a little, but you did say (in so many words) "all you need is a great bass and a great amp.." I get your point: a lot of gear doesn't matter (big pedal boards, rack units). Buttttt you NEED gear that sounds good so that the audience can hear what you have to say. And the better you are, the more good gear matters, because you gotta be great to get the best out of great gear. So yeah man, I think gear *really* matters. But you're right, you only need a great bass and a great amp.
Keep searching for how to get your sound in different rooms. Yeah, some are a nightmare and you can only get so much out of them, but there are definite ways to clear up your sound even in the worst of spaces. Even for slap bass haha.
Keep on thumpin brother!
First, I agree with a lot of what you said. Especially that most venues (and I would actually argue that the smaller rooms are worse!) are sonic challenges. AND that your "bedroom tone" doesn't matter once you plug in on stage or on the floor or wherever you're sitting your amp! I believe you can control that to a large extent tho with room filters. Bad rooms have one terrible frequency, and the worst rooms tend to have two. You've got an AI amp...do yours have the sweepable feedback filter? Those are LIFE CHANGING when you notch that feedback frequency out. And every room has one. Also, a good high pass will do the rest (and just turning the damn low end down. I've had to remind myself that over and over haha).
Also, by your own logic, gear matters. A LOT! Haha I'm busting your chops here a little, but you did say (in so many words) "all you need is a great bass and a great amp.." I get your point: a lot of gear doesn't matter (big pedal boards, rack units). Buttttt you NEED gear that sounds good so that the audience can hear what you have to say. And the better you are, the more good gear matters, because you gotta be great to get the best out of great gear. So yeah man, I think gear *really* matters. But you're right, you only need a great bass and a great amp.
Keep searching for how to get your sound in different rooms. Yeah, some are a nightmare and you can only get so much out of them, but there are definite ways to clear up your sound even in the worst of spaces. Even for slap bass haha.
Keep on thumpin brother!
All very interesting. I'm somewhere past 50 years of playing for other humans: probably a couple thousand gigs behind me.
I started out at 14, a young idiot barely knowing what I needed to know to play a tune. Now I'm 68 and not feeling nearly as old at 68 that I thought I would be when I was 14.
The back of my garage, my workshop, and my home office/studio are chock full of gear of various sorts. I have 28 electric basses, 2 uprights, 6 guitars, 2 pianos, and on and on. I still play a good deal, typically doubling on upright (1) and electric (1 of 3 mostly). 95% of the gear I own never leaves the house and won't unless it's sold. Some of it I sincerely love in its own right, some of it I'm just warehousing for no good reason really.
The first best thing I learned over the years is that being able to read music well, quickly, and across genres is of great use and will get me work. The second best thing I learned (via Ray Brown) is that if you can get a great sound, that will also get you work. The third best thing I learned is that the more complex the gear package that I take to a gig, the greater the likelihood that I won't have anything like enough time to get it set up and working properly, and the greater the likelihood that I'll be the last guy packed up and off the stage. As well, I'll have forgotten to bring something, and something will fail to work—probably at a critical juncture. The fourth best thing I learned is to never, ever, get involved in any ensemble where one of the members is a substance abuser, mentally ill, or both. The notion that they'll be able to handle things and function professionally is a fantasy. I'm early, sober, prepared, and organized—well *now* I am...there was a time, however...
I'm struggling with hearing loss associated with Meniere's and taking classical piano lessons—preparing myself mentally to one day set the on-stage bass playing aside.
I did that when I retired from the university, and it was a worthy effort.
I started out at 14, a young idiot barely knowing what I needed to know to play a tune. Now I'm 68 and not feeling nearly as old at 68 that I thought I would be when I was 14.
The back of my garage, my workshop, and my home office/studio are chock full of gear of various sorts. I have 28 electric basses, 2 uprights, 6 guitars, 2 pianos, and on and on. I still play a good deal, typically doubling on upright (1) and electric (1 of 3 mostly). 95% of the gear I own never leaves the house and won't unless it's sold. Some of it I sincerely love in its own right, some of it I'm just warehousing for no good reason really.
The first best thing I learned over the years is that being able to read music well, quickly, and across genres is of great use and will get me work. The second best thing I learned (via Ray Brown) is that if you can get a great sound, that will also get you work. The third best thing I learned is that the more complex the gear package that I take to a gig, the greater the likelihood that I won't have anything like enough time to get it set up and working properly, and the greater the likelihood that I'll be the last guy packed up and off the stage. As well, I'll have forgotten to bring something, and something will fail to work—probably at a critical juncture. The fourth best thing I learned is to never, ever, get involved in any ensemble where one of the members is a substance abuser, mentally ill, or both. The notion that they'll be able to handle things and function professionally is a fantasy. I'm early, sober, prepared, and organized—well *now* I am...there was a time, however...
I'm struggling with hearing loss associated with Meniere's and taking classical piano lessons—preparing myself mentally to one day set the on-stage bass playing aside.
I did that when I retired from the university, and it was a worthy effort.
Compression is hugely important for my sound and I notice it's absence and miss it when I don't have it (which is rare).
I'd say my compressor and my bass are the two most important parts of my rig. I have a great amp (so great I own two of them, Rumble 800) but running DI with a VTDI or something to that effect can get me most of what I need in a pinch with no amp.
I find notes lower than the lowest C# on a 5 sound more or less useless for what I do. And many cabs aren't gonna amplify the fundamental of those low 5 string notes adequately, even if it was useful.
So I don't play a 5, I play a 4 tuned down a half step with a drop C# when I need it.
I find "easy" work to be playing in front of an audience that likes what we're doing and is really into it. People who came to see us. Specifically.
I find "hard" work to be playing in front of lukewarm audiences. The hardest can be the best paying by orders of magnitude (weddings) so they are still worth doing, even though audience interest varies and the wedding band is like, somewhere 5 steps below coatroom attendant in terms of pecking order. You don't feel like a rockstar playing a wedding. People don't come to see you. But, it can be fun and it pays well.
I'd say my compressor and my bass are the two most important parts of my rig. I have a great amp (so great I own two of them, Rumble 800) but running DI with a VTDI or something to that effect can get me most of what I need in a pinch with no amp.
I find notes lower than the lowest C# on a 5 sound more or less useless for what I do. And many cabs aren't gonna amplify the fundamental of those low 5 string notes adequately, even if it was useful.
So I don't play a 5, I play a 4 tuned down a half step with a drop C# when I need it.
I find "easy" work to be playing in front of an audience that likes what we're doing and is really into it. People who came to see us. Specifically.
I find "hard" work to be playing in front of lukewarm audiences. The hardest can be the best paying by orders of magnitude (weddings) so they are still worth doing, even though audience interest varies and the wedding band is like, somewhere 5 steps below coatroom attendant in terms of pecking order. You don't feel like a rockstar playing a wedding. People don't come to see you. But, it can be fun and it pays well.
Been playing since the mid-60s, and, needless to say, live audio systems have evolved exponentially. On gigs these days, i see young bands often don't have onstage amplification at all, but rely on modeling software and in-ear monitoring. It's kind of strange standing in the wings checking out a metal band when the only one making any noise on stage is the drummer, while the house mix is being done on a smartphone. Our band is not yet entirely comfortable with this approach, so I currently still carry a GR Bass One amp and a compact PJB C8 cab. But the sound I'm after is not really dependent on any particular equipment, so in most cases there will be no problems. In fact, I reckon I could often just use the stage monitors.
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