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GM Discount for Everybody

#81
SMASH said:
...Matlthumb, I have a question in re: the emerging Asian markets. Has GM any plans to sell to the Chinese market or set up plants over there? I believe they only have 1% of potential drivers currently on the road, and they've got by far the most booming infrastructure and economy in the world. One country, half the world's population :eek:
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Actually, this is a bright spot. We have several plants in China, including a combined engine and transmission plant that one of my personal best friends and mentors was instrumental in getting built and set up in the 1997 -2001 timeframe. Next to that complex is an assembly plant that builds Buicks. As much as people in the US turn up their noses at Buicks, they are a symbol of success and refinement in China. We also export Cadillac CTS and STS to China and they are trying to convince us to set up an assembly plant to build them there. The STS we ship to China actually has a longer wheelbase and more back seat room than the US model. The truly successful in China are driven (not chauffered) in luxury cars like Cadillac STS and Audi A8. The back seat of the Chinese STS has amenities like a wine bottle chiller and a humidore.


SMASH said:
Not to derail the thread, but as a quick "IMO" it's due to China becoming "the factory of the world" that we'll see wages go down over here. We can't maintain any competitive stance with people willing to work harder overseas for only $100/mo - and often they're more highly educated (China produced twice the number of Engineers last year as we did in the West - in fact we've got a boom in college dropouts now). They don't have the hyperinflated housing market, and they're not addicted to DVDs, juciers, new TVs, basses, amps, etc. that are crippling us with debt - so in other words they can live pretty large for that $100/mo wage. As it pertains to cars though, so far that doesn't seem to be factor given that they're too expensive to ship so far (I presume). But there is wage competition in Mexico :hmm:
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Glad you said it so that I don't have to.

SMASH said:
The pendulum swings. I fear the party is over for the West, and things discussed in this thread make me think we're seeing more than just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
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Glad you said it so that I don't have to.

Peace,

James
 
#83
DigMe said:
malthumb,

What city is that plant in? I used to live up in Changchun and it's considered "the detroit of China" because it has many car factories including Volkswagen and Audi among others.

brad cook
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Shanghai. It's a Joint Venture with Shanghai Automobile I. C. (SAIC). We also have a truck plant in Guanxhou (spelling?)

Peace,

James
 
#84
Interesting that Chinese manufacturing plants are brought up. To what extent are the Chinese involved in, say, GM automaking? From my understanding, China is on track to be a new hotbed for manufacturing but (in the case of auto-making) only manufacturing. I understand that car parts already come from different corners of the world to end up as the final product in their respective plant, but how much of a role will China exclusively play a role in the future of the auto industry without actually holding the technology to effectively develop cars?

Keep in mind, this is a question, and not an argument to any point.
 
#85
canopener said:
Interesting that Chinese manufacturing plants are brought up. To what extent are the Chinese involved in, say, GM automaking? From my understanding, China is on track to be a new hotbed for manufacturing but (in the case of auto-making) only manufacturing. I understand that car parts already come from different corners of the world to end up as the final product in their respective plant, but how much of a role will China exclusively play a role in the future of the auto industry without actually holding the technology to effectively develop cars?

Keep in mind, this is a question, and not an argument to any point.
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Not sure if I totally understand the question, but I'll spit something out anyway....


  • China is growing in the auto industry and is making demands that make it clear that they will not just be an open market for imported product
  • China is developing engineering and design capability
  • Most car companies are very wary of the countries lax enforcement of intellectual property rights. There are many instances where companies feel like a Chinese company has duplicated their IP with no repercussions.
  • Malcolm Briklin is looking to import Chery automobiles from China. Chery has been sued more than once for IP theft.

Peace,

James
 
#86
China has many of their own brands of cars. Although some of them are probably reverse engineered from other companies!

They have the factories and technology in place and I'd look for them to start trying to market chinese cars in the next 15 years or so..maybe less. I don't know though.. Some enterprising company there might do like Lenovo just did with IBM...buy out some already established car company and start manufacturing under that badge. Who knows.

brad cook
 
#87
Gard said:
Nothin' personal James, you're a good guy (and I know this personally), and I think that 99% of everyone at GM (and the rest of the US auto industry) genuinely wants to make a good product at a fair price. Sadly, the other 1% has been fouling it up for quite a while now. Bean counters are the problem, I blame them for the plastic timing chain guide: "We can save half a cent on each one that way...that translates into more profit!!!".
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This is a key point. The people at domestic auto makers are mostly the best in the world. The incentive structure in place though (bonuses and promotions) is based substantially on that year's performance. So, if you're faced with a decision as you so often are...spend a little more for something that satisfies the customer, or try to get by with something cheap that will not become an obvious problem for a few years...the choice in terms of your own career is very clear. You cut, you pooh-pooh the ramifications of the substandard part, the numbers on paper look good, you get promoted. By the time it's a problem, it's somebody else's problem. If warranty costs are high on a 2005 model, the guy that made the decisions that led to that situation in 2001 is not penalized. The poor schlub on the 2005 program is. You're already busily cutting the 2009 program, and angling for VP. The people that are the absolute best at playing this game become the executive leadership team.
 
#88
c-ba55 said:
This is a key point. The people at domestic auto makers are mostly the best in the world. The incentive structure in place though (bonuses and promotions) is based substantially on that year's performance. So, if you're faced with a decision as you so often are...spend a little more for something that satisfies the customer, or try to get by with something cheap that will not become an obvious problem for a few years...the choice in terms of your own career is very clear. You cut, you pooh-pooh the ramifications of the substandard part, the numbers on paper look good, you get promoted. By the time it's a problem, it's somebody else's problem. If warranty costs are high on a 2005 model, the guy that made the decisions that led to that situation in 2001 is not penalized. The poor schlub on the 2005 program is. You're already busily cutting the 2009 program, and angling for VP. The people that are the absolute best at playing this game become the executive leadership team.
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Not much here I would argue with. I would say that I know of clear pockets of improvement. Since the late '90s we've instituted a Vehicle Line Executive (VLE) system, where each VLE is ultimately responsible for a particular vehicle or group of vehicles. Their appointments are considered long term and their compensation is largely based on how their vehicle performs in the marketplace. One of the VLEs I know was responsible for the Cadillac Deville when the last redesign was launched in 2000. He is also responsible for the replacement of that car that is launching as we speak. He will have gone two product lifecycles as the primary point of responsibility for the same product line. There are others with similar situations.

Peace,

James
 
#92
kserg said:
Plastic manifold :rolleyes:
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malthumb said:
[yoda] Clue I have not young paduwan [/yoda]
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I'll clue you in. In the mid 90's GM started making the upper intake manifolds on the 3800 V6 out of plastic. Between the heat of the EGR passages and the introduction of Dexcool, the manifolds deteriorate and leak, resulting in an expensive fix.

Fwiw I believe Dexcool is the major problem here, and have not one good thing to say about it. I'm waiting for the day that GM discontinues using it. I've seen more manifold gasket leaks, head gasket leaks and general cooling system deterioration since GM began using Dexcool.

It's absolute crap (ime) and I will NEVER use Dexcool in anything I own.
__________________
 
#93
Mike N said:
I'll clue you in. In the mid 90's GM started making the upper intake manifolds on the 3800 V6 out of plastic. Between the heat of the EGR passages and the introduction of Dexcool, the manifolds deteriorate and leak, resulting in an expensive fix.

Fwiw I believe Dexcool is the major problem here, and have not one good thing to say about it. I'm waiting for the day that GM discontinues using it. I've seen more manifold gasket leaks, head gasket leaks and general cooling system deterioration since GM began using Dexcool.

It's absolute crap (ime) and I will NEVER use Dexcool in anything I own.
__________________
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Thanks Mike. Don't know why I never knew about that one.

Peace,

James
 
#94
Dexcool is the orange-ish antifreeze, right?

My mechanic told me to NEVER buy that stuff. He said it is crap, and it will ruin my car. I went into an auto parts store a couple weeks ago to get some antifreeze, and a sales guy put the full court press on me to buy the orange stuff. He went on and on about how great it is, and that anyone who knows anything is using it. I told him my mechanic, a well known local shop, said it was crap. His reply was that they must not have known about it. I left the store and bought my antifreeze at a national chain auto parts store.

-Mike
 
#96
If GM had not axed the F-Body, I'd be at the dealership this very second. How a car that ran low 13's out of the box for an incredibly small price got discontinued I will never understand.

:rollno: :mad:

and from the first page in reference to the new G6

For comparison, the 1987 Corvette I used to own had a 5.7L V8 with 245 hp
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Your l98 powered Corvette would still demolish the G6 in any peformance test. A friend has an '86 and managed to run a 14.2@96-97 mph all day long absolutely bone stock. Not to mention - front wheel drive just plain out sucks.

Torque steer + Understeer = :bawl:

I AM however a HUGE fan of the new c6, especially the upcoming z06. By far the best performance car bargain on the face of the planet.

:hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
 
#97
From the first week of June.

SMASH said:
Wow, that sounds desperate. Guess I won't be covering my GM shorts anytime soon. :smug: People mentioned Ford earlier - IMO you'll see them resorting to similar methods soon : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Good deal for potential buyers though.
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SMASH said:
Good market students know that desperate sales tactics like these "discounts" never come without major job cuts on their heels.
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Since then, and note that in the meantime general markets are up nicely : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Malthumb, any new thoughts or input on this thread? I'd very much appreciate it. At the time you'd stated that additional job cuts were unlikely and the the ones then in the news had long been planned. What about the massive cuts recently announced?

I'm thinking of covering my shorts, because people seem to be jumping on board and thereby the worst, including a forthcoming strike?, seems factored in. I might actually go long for awhile, expecting a bounce. You think Kerkorkian is using this action to buy? Any talk of heads rolling at the top? Arguably they should have been planning to build small/smart cars instead of being lazy and riding the doomed SUV craze, which I say not in the hindsight of rising oil prices but in the "history repeats" spirit that businesses prosper by establishing the new trends rather than following current ones (same thing in the music biz, IMO). What's the buzz at the water cooler? Thanks.
 
#98
SMASH said:
From the first week of June.







Since then, and note that in the meantime general markets are up nicely : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Malthumb, any new thoughts or input on this thread? I'd very much appreciate it. At the time you'd stated that additional job cuts were unlikely and the the ones then in the news had long been planned. What about the massive cuts recently announced?........
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Dude,

Why you wanna go dragging me back down memory lane? ;)

If you go back to POST #51 in this thread, you and I were batting around the discussion on the GM announcement to cut 25,000 jobs by the end of 2008. Specifically, Rick Wagoner made that announcement and said that the details would be forthcoming by the end of the year. What you are now referring to is the detail behind the June announcements. What's changed since? Well, Katrina happened, fuel prices shot up and SUV sales dropped like a stone. Delphi hit rock bottom. So the 25,000 discussed in June is now 30,000. As is usually the case, the reductions will be managed primarily by retirements and attrition. Of the closings that were discussed, probably the biggest surprise to me is the closing of the Lansing Craft Center that makes the Chevy SSR hotrod truck. That's one of Rick's pet products, so I was surprized he pulled the plug on it. Otherwise, everything is pretty much as I understood it to be based on the June announcement.

Peace,

James
 
#99
malthumb said:
Dude,

Why you wanna go dragging me back down memory lane? ;)

If you go back to POST #51 in this thread, you and I were batting around the discussion on the GM announcement to cut 25,000 jobs by the end of 2008. Specifically, Rick Wagoner made that announcement and said that the details would be forthcoming by the end of the year. What you are now referring to is the detail behind the June announcements. What's changed since? Well, Katrina happened, fuel prices shot up and SUV sales dropped like a stone. Delphi hit rock bottom. So the 25,000 discussed in June is now 30,000. As is usually the case, the reductions will be managed primarily by retirements and attrition. Of the closings that were discussed, probably the biggest surprise to me is the closing of the Lansing Craft Center that makes the Chevy SSR hotrod truck. That's one of Rick's pet products, so I was surprized he pulled the plug on it. Otherwise, everything is pretty much as I understood it to be based on the June announcement.

Peace,

James
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Thanks. That's not as sensational as the news paints it. I'd have thought these were 30k new and additional jobs cut, the way it's being reported. Instead it is, per your post only (if I can use that word in light of job cuts) an extra 5k cuts. So not only could one argue the news is factored in, but it's in fact not really "news" at all? :hmm:

I've encountered this scenario often in my investing. Careful study will reveal something, to stay on topic let's say that the debt was "junk", then months later there's "news" about it and it's confusing because it was really already known to anyone paying the least bit of attention. So you wonder if it was really factored in already or if sheeple are truly surprised by this "news", and to enough of a degree to materially affect the stock for awhile.

Anyway ... what's next in your opinion? Any idea if Kerkorkian is buying? Is management loading up or dumping?

:)
 
#100
GM brings back employee pricing promotion

Malthumb, are you still working there? I'd very much appreciate your thoughts in re: this post.

History repeats, as I am fond of saying : Invalid Link Removed

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I said it 3 years ago when this thread started, and I'll say it again now - GM is in deep trouble and IMO going bankrupt.

Dislaimer : I am short GM stock, meaning I profit if it goes down, and I have been in this position almost the whole time since 2001 mostly due to news like this, along with "zero percent financing" which to me reveals all is not well within the company.

Well, that's obvious now, but it was considered insane to think so in 2001 and I'll bet most people consider me crazy now for saying the company will go bankrupt but if you read their fisal reporting you'll find they're already effectively insolvent and will likely run out of cash within 2 years tops. I guess at that point the name and perhaps the manufacturing will be bought out or bailed out, likely by Chinese or Arabic interests (that's the current economic trend, not a racist comment) but GM as we've known it for many deacades will be kaput.

Anyway, big discounts at GM. Thread revived.
 

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