GM Discount for Everybody

[malthumb]

SMASH,

I nominate you for least likely to suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder

GM brings back employee pricing promotion

Malthumb, are you still working there?

Harder than ever. At a different part of the business than the first incarnation of this thread.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts in re: this post.

History repeats, as I am fond of saying : Invalid Link Removed

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I said it 3 years ago when this thread started, and I'll say it again now - GM is in deep trouble and IMO going bankrupt.

I'd say "history repeats" only to the extent that World War II is a repeat of the War of 1812. Different time-frame, different circumstances, but similar results. People die (or get laid off) boundaries get redrawn (or stock prices and market share drop) and the view from a distance looks a lot different than the view on the front lines.

Dislaimer : I am short GM stock, meaning I profit if it goes down, and I have been in this position almost the whole time since 2001 mostly due to news like this, along with "zero percent financing" which to me reveals all is not well within the company.

Naw. You're reading too much into it. The 2008 model year just ended with a serious drop in sales, industry wide. So there is still a lot of 2008 model year stock on dealers lots as the car haulers start pulling in with 2009 hardware. You tend to do whatever you need to to move the 2008 stock out and keep the plants running with the 2009 models. The severity of the market downturn is as much a driver, if not more, of the pricing and financing deals as is the general health of the company.

Well, that's obvious now, but it was considered insane to think so in 2001 and I'll bet most people consider me crazy now for saying the company will go bankrupt but if you read their fisal reporting you'll find they're already effectively insolvent and will likely run out of cash within 2 years tops.

I'll defer to you on this. Financial analysis ain't my forte. I do see the numbers for cash reserves and I see the numbers being spent on product programs. If I were to say that things weren't that tough, somebody'd show up to my office with a little cup for me to pee in. On the other hand, I'm not looking to go for long walks on short window sills either. It's going to be tough, but the tough will survive and the industry will be TOTALLY different than it was in 2000.

I guess at that point the name and perhaps the manufacturing will be bought out or bailed out, likely by Chinese or Arabic interests (that's the current economic trend, not a racist comment) but GM as we've known it for many deacades will be kaput.

The North American auto industry as at the center of a "Perfect Storm" of sorts. a collapsing economy, consumers getting caught up in a collapsing housing market that will likely end the era of consumers using home equity to make big ticket purchases, astronomical oil prices, a revolution in fuel economy and emission regulation, and the emergence of Chinese, Indian, and Russian deep pockets to turn the markets upside down.

Anyway, big discounts at GM.

YAAAY!!

Thread revived.

DARN!

Peace,

James

 

[Barkless Dog]

Plus the fact cars really will last 200,000 miles and people are not buying cars every four years anymore like they used to. We have a 1989 Mazda MPV van that has 86,000 miles and had literally no issues with it, except one rust spot. Why sell it to get a new car?

You can't get anything for it used, we will take care of it & drive it till it dies. Bad gas mileage be dammed!

 

[bradjonesbass]

Both my current cars are paid for. My explorer has 142K, my wife's Accord has 135K and both of us plan on driving them for at least another 60 - 100K miles. That said, I saw somebody advertising a 4wd Ford Supercrew for 17,400 after rebates and incentives the other day - brand new and pretty well optioned. That's about 1/2 of sticker. I'm being tempted.

 

[SMASH]

Malthumb, given that GM is now admitting being on the verge of bankruptcy, what's your take please?

Referring to your replies in post #101, are you still keen on Wagoner? Any insight appreciated.

Kudos to you for handling the barbs in this thread as well as you did. Also thanks to you and some of the other posters fot hipping me to more issues than I was aware of. I didn't realize at the time some of the incredible benefits being paid out to people that have been fired or have retired. I'll still blame management for granting those concessions, though I'm not sure they had much choice at the time.

Amazing to watch how this is all being played out - the "big 3" CEO's going by private jet to beg for taxpayer money and all. We live in interesting times eh? I hope you and yours are as insulated as can be.

 

[MJ5150]

the "big 3" CEO's going by private jet to beg for taxpayer money and all.

I heard on the radio that the average cost for them to fly on a private jet was $500 each, but a commerical ticket in the coach cabin was $663 each. Because of the outcry from the last time, they were supposedly going to fly commerical coach class this time even though it was going to cost more.

-Mike

 

[SMASH]

I heard on the radio that the average cost for them to fly on a private jet was $500 each, but a commerical ticket in the coach cabin was $663 each. Because of the outcry from the last time, they were supposedly going to fly commerical coach class this time even though it was going to cost more.

-Mike

This time they drove around 500 miles in hybrid cars to get there. No idea what brand of cars though - do the "big 3" even make hybrids? Dumb stunt, IMO. Flying a regular airline would have sufficed.

There's no way flying a private jet costs $500. Maybe $500 per minute or per second? I read a cost figure that was exponentially higher.

Possibly the $500 claim floats if you figure they have already paid for the jets and staff whether they fly or not? Either way, it was stupid not to think of the impression it'd give. Same total lack of foresight evident in the way they run their corporations which was key in my long-standing predictions they'd be going bankrupt so I wasn't exactly shocked they'd come off as so clueless in the recent hearings - ie. not having any credible plan for the $25 (now $34) billion they were begging for, or giving any indictaion why taxpayers should expect they wouldn't need another $30 billion in a few weeks or months (they will). Bankruptcy is the most healthy thing that could happen to these companies, and the only chance they have for long-term survival - it'd give them some creditor protection and a chance to start fresh with the union contracts and legacy benefits.

GM is now selling the leasing rights to their jets, I believe, and Ford has already sold or is selling theirs.

 

[MJ5150]

There's no way flying a private jet costs $500.

I have no idea. I've never spent time in a private jet, or kept company with those who do. I'm just saying what I heard on the radio, which I realize isn't absolute truth all the time.

I do know this though, it costs $53,000 to fly a commercial jet from New York City to Los Angeles.

-Mike

 

[mike_v_s]

This time they drove around 500 miles in hybrid cars to get there. No idea what brand of cars though - do the "big 3" even make hybrids?

Ford and GM do....I don't think Chrysler has one.

As far as the cost to take aprivate jet.....I have to agree; there's no way it's $500. Think of the cost incurred just to pay the pilot.

In my industry, anyone wanting a private contracter hired to complete a particular skilled task will shovel out anywhere from $400 to $600 per day, plus expenses (and we can't fly). The two industries are very different, but I cannot imagine how a private flight would only cost $500.

Mike

 

[MJ5150]

In my industry, anyone wanting a private contracter hired to complete a particular skilled task will shovel out anywhere from $400 to $600 per day, plus expenses (and we can't fly).

We get $1200 per day plus expenses, and we do fly. The $1200 gets you eight hours during normal working hours, and includes a lunch break.

Despite the economy being in the toilet, we have seen very little fall off in our business. People are still forking over the $1200 per day and expenses. I was on one site for eight days back in August.

-Mike

 

[mike_v_s]

We get $1200 per day plus expenses, and we do fly. The $1200 gets you eight hours during normal working hours, and includes a lunch break.

Despite the economy being in the toilet, we have seen very little fall off in our business. People are still forking over the $1200 per day and expenses. I was on one site for eight days back in August.

-Mike

We are about the same. We began diversifying a few years ago "just in case" and now that it has come to fruition, we are one of the few people in our area hiring. Since everyone else is laying off, we're getting to cherry pick the talent.

Mike

 

[malthumb]

Malthumb, given that GM is now admitting being on the verge of bankruptcy, what's your take please?

The depth of the current financial ditch is the result of a "perfect storm". $4/gallon gas + cost to meet upcoming fuel economy and emissions regs were a pretty stiff 1-2 punch. Then when you have your primary financing arm (GMAC) publicly announce that NOBODY without at least a 700 credit rating is going to get financed, you get a 40+ % drop in sales, which means no cash coming in. Keep in mind that this happened while GM and Chrysler were theoretically negotiating GM acquisition of Chrysler. Cerberus, the company that owns Chrysler also owns 51% of GMAC.

Referring to your replies in post #101, are you still keen on Wagoner? Any insight appreciated.

Yep. When you step back from the Capitol Hill theatrics, the bottom line is the ENTIRE AUTO INDUSTRY is crashing, even beloved Toyota. Last time I checked, Rick wasn't running those companies. GM is running short on cash because the past couple years have been focused on investing in COMPLETELY turning around the portfolio. In the midst of all this, the "perfect storm" I described above rained down. Over the past couple years, the entire Saturn lineup and most of the Cadillac and Chevrolet lineups have also been updated. That costs money and takes time. Ironically, some of the Senators who pretend to actually know what they are talking about complain about the Big 3 not renewing their products. The OLDEST product in the Saturn lineup is the Sky Roadster Invalid Link Removed

Kudos to you for handling the barbs in this thread as well as you did.

You guys are pussycats compared to some of the crap I have to take at a couple hybrid forums I frequent.

Also thanks to you and some of the other posters fot hipping me to more issues than I was aware of. I didn't realize at the time some of the incredible benefits being paid out to people that have been fired or have retired. I'll still blame management for granting those concessions, though I'm not sure they had much choice at the time.

Amazing to watch how this is all being played out - the "big 3" CEO's going by private jet to beg for taxpayer money and all. We live in interesting times eh? I hope you and yours are as insulated as can be.

The airplane crap is soooo indicative of how Washington DC runs by soundbite, as well as how we in the auto industry rely too much on business case management of even the most basic decisions. So what does that mean?

We're talking about billions of dollars and millions of jobs in the balance and people are getting uptight about CEOs using planes that their companies lease (as in have already paid all but the incremental fuel cost for the trip) instead of flying commercial. The reasons the planes exist is because on any given day, company offficials can start their day in Seoul, Tokyo, or Shanghai and need to be in New York or Detroit for another meeting. That doesn't work so well when you have to try and meet schedules using commercial air. So there has been a small fleet of air transport. The pilots are on salary (or at least they have been in the past), so from a BUSINESS CASE perspective, you've already paid for the plane and the pilot....makes sense to use them. Also take into account that these guys did not go to Washington alone. They had staffers and security. On a private plane, you actually get work done in flight and can accommodate your entire travel team.


On the other hand, anything that needs that much explanation probably won't hold up well under today's soundbite political news reporting. If you are concerned about your public image, you can't always make the BUSINESS CASE decision.


As far as hybrids, I've been working on hybrid programs in one form or another since about 2000. Current GM hybrids on the market...

Chevrolet Tahoe / GMC Yukon, Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn VUE, Saturn Aura, Buick Regal in China, Cadillac Escalade (seriously). The Silverado / Sierra pickup Hybrids are about to launch. Several more coming, but I can't talk about those yet.

Ford has the Escape Hybrid, the Mercury Mariner Hybrid, and is now launching the Fusion Hybrid.

Chrysler has the Durango Hybrid, but they are about to cancel that and focus on the Dodge Ram Hybrid. They (and Mercedes and BMW) use the same hybrid system used in the Chevy Tahoe / GMC Yukon / Cadillac Escalade.

Peace,

James

 

[MJ5150]

Current GM hybrids on the market......Cadillac Escalade (seriously).

Yep, I saw one the other day. The dealer had a big banner above it that said hybrid. I couldn't believe it so I stopped in to ask. Sho' enough, it is.

-Mike

 

[malthumb]

Yep, I saw one the other day. The dealer had a big banner above it that said hybrid. I couldn't believe it so I stopped in to ask. Sho' enough, it is.

-Mike

I drove one for about 3 weeks this summer. Borrowed it from the development team to drive over vacation and to go to my sister's wedding.

Link Removed


Link Removed

My wife made the cake. Nine layers that had to be packed, but not stacked. Since this is TALKBASS, please pay close attention to the black item pressed up against the seatback. Yes, I did pack my bass FIRST

Peace,

James

 

[SMASH]

The depth of the current financial ditch is the result of a "perfect storm". $4/gallon gas + cost to meet upcoming fuel economy and emissions regs were a pretty stiff 1-2 punch. Then when you have your primary financing arm (GMAC) publicly announce that NOBODY without at least a 700 credit rating is going to get financed, you get a 40+ % drop in sales, which means no cash coming in. Keep in mind that this happened while GM and Chrysler were theoretically negotiating GM acquisition of Chrysler. Cerberus, the company that owns Chrysler also owns 51% of GMAC.

My take on this.

GMAC hadn't a choice as they were in deep doo-doo and should've been sold 100% rather than 50% when the selling was good. (Or was that some other GM financing thing that was partly sold? I haven't got my notes handy and that was a long time ago).

As for the "perfect storm", oil prices were rising steadily for 8 years and GM was effectively bankrupt long before this summer's oil & gas price spike. So was the average consumer tapped out on credit.

Whether Wagoner's, the accounting department, or the entire board, many heads should roll since many completely failed in their responsiblities to see these obvious trends coming or to at least hedge for them. If I can do it, and I did, anyone can - especially if they have so much at stake. Unless they're hacks too busy living the high life, which I think GM's leadership has been for a long, long time and why I bet accordingly against them.

We can disagree on them being hacks, but they sure acted like it and no one can say without a hardy chuckle from me that they couldn't see this coming. All they had to do was read the balance sheet, or look at what their competitors were doing.

I know you can't just re-tool an SUV plant to make tiny hybrids though, but again I'd argue some foresight is required, some prudent hedging, and failing all that then they need bankruptcy to reconfigure their obligations and business. Taxpayer money given to them will only be wasted in further fattening those feasting at the trough - union and board members alike.


FYI, if you want some very funny stuff re: Wagoner as some in the investment community perceive him, search for "porter stansberry letter from the GM chairman". He's an investment advisor that wrote a series of parody letters from Wagoner to shareholders over the past year or two, and he called it exactly. I hope those were being forwarded among everyone at GM all along, as many from the company including management and at the dealership level wrote in to complain about the parody letters so not everyone there was blindsided.


I agree with your take on the airplanes already being paid for, but when you go begging for money perception counts. It shows how clueless the leadership is, unlike Toyota or Honda's leadership who, while also suffering falling sales, aren't shamelessly and unconscionably begging for taxpayer money to avoid bankruptcy (which GM cannot avoid anyway).

As for business cases, the problem was they showed up in Washington without any buisiness case or contingencies which is exactly how they came to need to be there in the first place, so there wasn't much else to comment on other than the private airplanes and the CEOs' general woeful lack of preparation. They only had a bunch of cheap and hollow scare tacticts about the economy collapsing if these companies go under, which shows again they know very little about business or economics since only bankruptcy can actually save these companies and is inevitable anyway (without massive unprecedented concessions from the union and retirees perhaps). They should have gone to Washington to beg for an expeditious bankruptcy.

This article explains further - http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/12/gm-bankruptcy-option-under-discussion.html


I have very little doubt you could run the company far better than Wagoner has. Sincere good luck to you.

Yep. When you step back from the Capitol Hill theatrics, the bottom line is the ENTIRE AUTO INDUSTRY is crashing, even beloved Toyota. Last time I checked, Rick wasn't running those companies. GM is running short on cash because the past couple years have been focused on investing in COMPLETELY turning around the portfolio. In the midst of all this, the "perfect storm" I described above rained down. Over the past couple years, the entire Saturn lineup and most of the Cadillac and Chevrolet lineups have also been updated. That costs money and takes time. Ironically, some of the Senators who pretend to actually know what they are talking about complain about the Big 3 not renewing their products. The OLDEST product in the Saturn lineup is the Sky Roadster Invalid Link Removed

You guys are pussycats compared to some of the crap I have to take at a couple hybrid forums I frequent.

The airplane crap is soooo indicative of how Washington DC runs by soundbite, as well as how we in the auto industry rely too much on business case management of even the most basic decisions. So what does that mean?

We're talking about billions of dollars and millions of jobs in the balance and people are getting uptight about CEOs using planes that their companies lease (as in have already paid all but the incremental fuel cost for the trip) instead of flying commercial. The reasons the planes exist is because on any given day, company offficials can start their day in Seoul, Tokyo, or Shanghai and need to be in New York or Detroit for another meeting. That doesn't work so well when you have to try and meet schedules using commercial air. So there has been a small fleet of air transport. The pilots are on salary (or at least they have been in the past), so from a BUSINESS CASE perspective, you've already paid for the plane and the pilot....makes sense to use them. Also take into account that these guys did not go to Washington alone. They had staffers and security. On a private plane, you actually get work done in flight and can accommodate your entire travel team.

On the other hand, anything that needs that much explanation probably won't hold up well under today's soundbite political news reporting. If you are concerned about your public image, you can't always make the BUSINESS CASE decision.


As far as hybrids, I've been working on hybrid programs in one form or another since about 2000. Current GM hybrids on the market...

Chevrolet Tahoe / GMC Yukon, Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn VUE, Saturn Aura, Buick Regal in China, Cadillac Escalade (seriously). The Silverado / Sierra pickup Hybrids are about to launch. Several more coming, but I can't talk about those yet.

Ford has the Escape Hybrid, the Mercury Mariner Hybrid, and is now launching the Fusion Hybrid.

Chrysler has the Durango Hybrid, but they are about to cancel that and focus on the Dodge Ram Hybrid. They (and Mercedes and BMW) use the same hybrid system used in the Chevy Tahoe / GMC Yukon / Cadillac Escalade.

Peace,

James