Got a question for the jazz peeps-does this comment have merit?

[fdeck]

As I think I said previously, just wait a couple decades and things will probably change.

If anything, I predict a resurgence of upright bass, due to the rising respectability of the bass and the spread of school orchestra programs.

When I was growing up, it was hit-or-miss whether a young person could get any instruction on bass at all. Many schools treated the bass as the instrument that anybody could figure out on their own and play well enough to thump along behind the band. People who became jazz bassists, like me, often had their training in some other instrument -- cello in my case. I know other bassists in my locale who had similar experiences of switching to the bass from other bass clef instruments -- cello, trombone, tuba.

Where I am now living, music is flourishing in the schools. Students are learning upright and getting serious classical instruction. There is no corresponding opportunity for kids who play electric bass. As a result, the upright players will have first pick of chances to learn jazz. If young upright players are favored for those learning opportunities -- in school groups, low profile gigs, etc., they will gain the knowledge and experience that lets them advance.

So I think the challenge for electric bass is not merely to prove that the bass is functional in a jazz setting -- because any instrument is. The challenge is to figure out how to provide electric players with the kind of training that upright players take for granted.

Meanwhile, I don't think the preference for upright bass is simply a matter of traditionalism, enforced by the "jazz police." Jazz is a moving target, and a competitive scene. It's a mistake to think that the "upright sound" is encapsulated by old recordings. For example, I make extensive use of the bow when playing jazz, although there is relatively little bowed bass on those 100 famous recordings.

By the way, +1 to Pacman and Jim Campbell. In my view, jazz is about knowledge, because the work of the past happens to be of lasting value, but it is also about finding a conduit from your ears to your hands, through your brain. That can be done on any instrument. It's a bit harder to work in the scene if you don't play a traditional instrument, but that hasn't prevented people from playing jazz on violin, cello, french horn, etc.

 

[COOL AND DEADLY]

I think people try to put musical genres into neat little boxes, but really music is music. I think Gerald Veasley and Jimmy Haslip are great jazz bassists, but because they play electric, they are dubbed fusion players. I think people need to stop and listen to what is actually being played and not worry about which box it fits into. I think Paul Simon exposes how people need to stereotype and categorize, even if it's off the mark. Graceland is essentially African music. The Mother and Child Reunion is very much influenced by reggae. Me and Julio fits the Latin genre. But, because it is Paul Simon everyone wants to call it classic rock or singer/songwriter type stuff. I believe it is just good music, and doesn't need to be labeled as anything other. I love when people say they hate reggae and they love Sublime or the Police. Music is music. Jazz is probably the most wide open style of music ever. Any instrument, scale, chord, note can be employed however anyone wants.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Oh, now Jim, that doesn't describe me at ALL...

 

[Rudreax]

If anything, I predict a resurgence of upright bass, due to the rising respectability of the bass and the spread of school orchestra programs.

When I was growing up, it was hit-or-miss whether a young person could get any instruction on bass at all. Many schools treated the bass as the instrument that anybody could figure out on their own and play well enough to thump along behind the band. People who became jazz bassists, like me, often had their training in some other instrument -- cello in my case. I know other bassists in my locale who had similar experiences of switching to the bass from other bass clef instruments -- cello, trombone, tuba.

Where I am now living, music is flourishing in the schools. Students are learning upright and getting serious classical instruction. There is no corresponding opportunity for kids who play electric bass. As a result, the upright players will have first pick of chances to learn jazz. If young upright players are favored for those learning opportunities -- in school groups, low profile gigs, etc., they will gain the knowledge and experience that lets them advance.

So I think the challenge for electric bass is not merely to prove that the bass is functional in a jazz setting -- because any instrument is. The challenge is to figure out how to provide electric players with the kind of training that upright players take for granted.

Meanwhile, I don't think the preference for upright bass is simply a matter of traditionalism, enforced by the "jazz police." Jazz is a moving target, and a competitive scene. It's a mistake to think that the "upright sound" is encapsulated by old recordings. For example, I make extensive use of the bow when playing jazz, although there is relatively little bowed bass on those 100 famous recordings.

By the way, +1 to Pacman and Jim Campbell. In my view, jazz is about knowledge, because the work of the past happens to be of lasting value, but it is also about finding a conduit from your ears to your hands, through your brain. That can be done on any instrument. It's a bit harder to work in the scene if you don't play a traditional instrument, but that hasn't prevented people from playing jazz on violin, cello, french horn, etc.

I didn't think of it from that perspective, but you have a point; bass in general is slowly gaining more respect in them musical community. What I meant, though, was that simply given more time to have an impact in music the bass guitar will slowly become more accepted in jazz. More and more people will be turned on to bass guitar playing eventually. That's how music goes.

We mainly need more people people who have had training and experience on DB switch to electric, such as Monk Montgomery and Steve Swallow.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

if leo fender had built the precision in 10 years sooner the face of jazz might look a lot different today........dragging a db to far flung gigs on the roof of a plymouth knowing that the audiences could barely hear it might have convinced a lot of guys to go electric sooner....

I don't think it's about convenience - it's about the sound and a precision bass just doesn't sound the same as a DB!

I agree with fdeck that it's going the other way and I meet many people who started out on BG but have converted to DB.

I have been going to the same Jazz Summerschool annually, since about 1998 and when I started I was playing BG and out of the 15 or so other bass players - about half were using BG.

Gradually though - it has got the point where guys I saw in previous years playing BG have all gone over to DB and the last few years there have only been 1 or 2 BGs and a dozen or more DBs!

 

[Jim Campbell]

I don't think it's about convenience - it's about the sound and a precision bass just doesn't sound the same as a DB!

I agree with fdeck that it's going the other way and I meet many people who started out on BG but have converted to DB.

I have been going to the same Jazz Summerschool annually, since about 1998 and when I started I was playing BG and out of the 15 or so other bass players - about half were using BG.

Gradually though - it has got the point where guys I saw in previous years playing BG have all gone over to DB and the last few years there have only been 1 or 2 BGs and a dozen or more DBs!

fdeck is correct that a lot of guys are going db,and they are able to do that in larger numbers because the modern world allows us to transport them easily in molded cases,on modern airplanes or interstates,play them through sota sound systems,in climate controlled venues.......

 

[Pacman]

Of course you can play BG in Jazz - but it is much, much harder - why put that difficulty in your way - why not just do what hundreds and thousand of Jazz players have done before..?

Because Jazz isn't about doing what hundreds and thousands have done before. It's about self-expression.

 

[fdeck]

fdeck is correct that a lot of guys are going db,and they are able to do that in larger numbers because the modern world allows us to transport them easily in molded cases,on modern airplanes or interstates,play them through sota sound systems,in climate controlled venues.......

Not to mention, some of us, myself included, aren't good enough to travel, so transportation isn't a problem.

Another factor is that DB is getting easier to amplify.

 

[fdeck]

Because Jazz isn't about doing what hundreds and thousands have done before. It's about self-expression.

Agreed, and I think if you listen closely, even guys playing standards in club gigs, aren't doing it exactly like it was done in 1930. It's a moving target. Innovation versus respect for the past is a false dichotomy.

 

[Pacman]

Innovation versus respect for the past is a false dichotomy.

Totally agreed. I think that's what I've been saying the whole time.

 

[JimmyM]

I just dont get why your being such a jerk. You act like I dont know anything about jazz, when in fact, I know quite a bit. My opinion is just as valid as yours. Its a pretty unrealistic aspiration to make it in a big band without playing upright bass, and its tough to get famous as a jazz player unless youve been playing a long time. Those two things are pretty much undeniable.

So I think its time you bow out of this thread

My posts were totally reasonable, and had merit, but unfortunately, your such a tool that anyone with a differing opinion has to be wrong. But according to posts by other users, that was to be expected of you. And I expect nothing else but more of the same in your next post to, so dont even bother writing it, because Im out of this thread

So if you know so much, why aren't you the biggest star in jazz?

Sorry, dude, but you seriously mean to tell everyone that you know as much as Ed? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You're 16 and you don't know crap compared to someone who's got 4 or 5 decades of playing with the top people in the world.

BTW, Fassa, you can do anything you put your mind to and work at. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently, especially teenagers who are all assed up on themselves.

 

[ClassicRock55]

Oh come on Sparky, you're the one who said "I like to start fights on youtube", is it not any fun when they get started on you?
You might have experience, but it's a small amount (did the bake sale remark hit a little too close?), you may have played music that 16 year olds found hard, you may have played 12 whole concerts, you may have had the resource of some players with far more depth of experience than you for a few weeks every year (although the only cat I heard of is
Jeff Campbell, I know more of the guys that do the Jamey Aebersold camps and Attila's camp up in Vermont. We run into each other a lot. Here in New York. Where I've been living and playing jazz gigs for longer than you been alive.), but that's ALL.

Having a couple of little things under your belt doesn't make you an expert and certainly doesn't make you the one "telling the truth". There are plenty of cats that did NOT start young, there are plenty of guys that played electric bass in big bands (ask Mike Richmond what he was playing in Buddy's band) and small ensembles.

You're young and full of yourself, fine. But you are specifically wrong, incorrect, misinformed and absolutely not right in this instance.

Ed-

By chance do you know Steve Reinfranck? He's my current teacher. I remember him telling me a few stories about Attila's camp. Unfortunately, I believe Attila has passed on.

 

[JimmyM]

Attila Zoller has, indeed, been dead for about 11 years.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

No, I don't know Steve. I met Attila here in NYC, I was studying with Mike Formanek for a minnit and he was playing with Attila and Don Friedman at a little joint in the Village. I play with Jimmy Raney's youngest son, Jon, a bit (though not so much lately, from the last we spoke that may change!) and Jimmy and Attila were friends. So I know about the camp, but don't know a lot of the teachers there. Santi Debriani did some teaching there, I know him a little from Boston.

Is Steve in NYC?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's funny how Jazz can make the world seem small - so I have seen Michael Formanek play at close quarters in my local - Brighton Jazz club and as I mentioned before - I chatted there to Doug Raney, Jon's brother - who has been there a few times. I remember he plays regularly with Damon Brown a British trumpeter.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Because Jazz isn't about doing what hundreds and thousands have done before. It's about self-expression.

Well - I think we are talking about two different things here!

So - I love Jazz that is innovative and explores new things - I am a big fan of experimental music and have been to gigs where Jazz groups have fused the music of the Middle East and microtonal scales - I love the music of Messiaen and I love the way that many contemporary Jazz players are taking elements from his piano writing and incorporating that in their new compositions, fusing them into a unique style.

But all of that kind of thing is a world away from advising somebody who is a beginner to Jazz and is thinking about going along to Jazz jams for the first time - you have to start somewhere and my point is that if you are advising somebody about getting started - you would be pointing them at classic recordings which are almost exclusively DB players and not at the avant garde!!

 

[Pacman]

sigh....

And I'm saying it's about what you play, not about what you play it on.


Otherwise, you'd be squawking on and on about the superiority of the tuba in jazz....

 

[ClassicRock55]

No, I don't know Steve. I met Attila here in NYC, I was studying with Mike Formanek for a minnit and he was playing with Attila and Don Friedman at a little joint in the Village. I play with Jimmy Raney's youngest son, Jon, a bit (though not so much lately, from the last we spoke that may change!) and Jimmy and Attila were friends. So I know about the camp, but don't know a lot of the teachers there. Santi Debriani did some teaching there, I know him a little from Boston.

Is Steve in NYC?

Steve's from Chicago (well Evanston). I last remember him talking about Attila and his camp about a year and a half ago. I don't quite remember whether he taught there or played bass in Attila's combo. He said Attila was a real great guy though.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

sigh....

And I'm saying it's about what you play, not about what you play it on.


Otherwise, you'd be squawking on and on about the superiority of the tuba in jazz....

Well - that goes more to prove my point - how many classic Jazz recordings have Tuba - I would struggle to find one? It is much more difficult to play fast bebop lines on Tuba and it would just be putting a huge obstacle in your way if you tried to do it..

Whereas my point of view is that DB actually lends itself to playing these kind of lines while the sustain and envelope of BG sound hinders you..?

So I would see it as the fact that if your aim is to play Jazz then the best advice is to consider that at some point you will find playing DB is going to be on your agenda.

 

[Pacman]

So I would see it as the fact that if your aim is to play Jazz then the best advice is to consider that at some point you will find playing DB is going to be on your agenda.

Maybe. Maybe not. Certainly not the best advice, just your advice. Which you've made perfectly clear. Over and over.

And maybe you'll be like me. I learned how to play DB at a fairly passable level (recordings of the sessions we did with Gordon Goodwin are linked somewhere on the DB side....). Then I realized that whenever I was playing DB, I was playing the bass, but when I play electric, I could just concentrate on playing the music. At that point, it was a no-brainer of a decision for me.

The electric bass is the sound in my head, and it's the instrument through which I can express myself better. And nobody's ever complained after they've heard me play it.