Got Offering from Label, Is It Worthy?

[MultiScaleMale]

There was a good video on YouTube showing how some of the signing scams works. There was one where the label would take a 50/50 split. It sounds ok on the surface, but when you look deeper you get to keep the master license, that you can't sign away. So, the 50/50 split is essentially you giving away all possible royalties you can. Wish I could find the video.

EDIT: I somehow found it instantly with the same search I was using earlier:

 

[Richard Lindsey]

FWIW, there's another way to interpret Cliff's post.
I.e. -- Don't feel bad for the record company in passing up this deal - they'll find someone else. They always do.
(They need you more than you need them...)

Well, I don't remember anybody feeling bad for the record company. And I'm a bit puzzled by your final parenthetical sentence, which seems to be directly contradicted by the preceding two. That is, if the record company "always" finds someone else, that suggests that they don't in fact need you more than you need them. It tends to suggest that they don't need you at all.

Not that I think this a good thing; very much the opposite.

 

[ArtechnikA]

...if the record company "always" finds someone else, that suggests that they don't in fact need you more than you need them. It tends to suggest that they don't need you at all.

They always need somebody, they just don't need you.
There is always a line of starry-eyed hopefuls ready to be fleeced.
If you don't want to sign on for the ride, there's someone else who will.
Per P.T. Barnum's observation...

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Poor John Fogerty got ripped off by his label and now look
View attachment 3933975

Yes. This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that everybody should sign any record deal they can, with any fly-by-night operation that wants to call itself a label, under any exploitative terms offered, because the mere signing of a recording contract makes it overwhelmingly likely that you will get an estate with a pool in the back. /s

 

[Wood and Wire]

They always need somebody, they just don't need you.
There is always a line of starry-eyed hopefuls ready to be fleeced.
If you don't want to sign on for the ride, there's someone else who will.
Per P.T. Barnum's observation...

That next somebody in line, has to have a marketable, commercially viable product, or there is nothing for the label to fleece anyone out of.


That is an important bargaining chip.

 

[Music Attorney]

Poor John Fogerty got ripped off by his label and now look
View attachment 3933975

Your post infers to me that the purchase of that estate was made possible by his record deal. I don’t know how much John paid for that house, but if I was a person who liked to place bets (and I am), I would bet his touring money over the years was largely responsible for that kind of estate. And that’s particularly true given what I know about artist royalties under older contracts (even assuming his success almost surely allowed him to renegotiate over the years).

Given his success as a songwriter, I would also bet his publishing money would be second in line to pay off that mortgage.

Both of these income streams would significantly dwarf the money from his record deal (even a good one).

As I said previously, whether a deal is good, bad, right, wrong, etc. can be very subjective and so I’m not commenting with respect to whether John got “ripped off by his label”. I’m just adding my perspective for the people reading that I believe that kind of rich comes from somewhere other than a record deal (regardless of whether it’s good or bad).

MA

 

[ArtechnikA]

That next somebody in line, has to have a marketable, commercially viable product, or there is nothing for the label to fleece anyone out of.
That is an important bargaining chip.

I wish that were true...
But all they really need is a dream.
Scammers love to prey on dreams -- and vanity.
Modeling "schools" are famous for this. "For Just A Small Fee" they will enroll you in classes in hair, makeup, posture, etc, and all it takes to get the ball rolling is someone telling you you're photogenic. "You could be a star!" "Top models pull down $10,000 a day!" "Let me sign you up for some head shots - you're going to need a professional portfolio..."

I have no issue with legitimate labels and agents taking their percentage when they are actually delivering on their promises, and I absolutely agree, that situation requires a legitimate marketable product. But scammers just need your name on a contract, and a collection agency...

 

[Cliff Colton]

Your post infers to me that the purchase of that estate was made possible by his record deal. I don’t know how much John paid for that house, but if I was a person who liked to place bets (and I am), I would bet his touring money over the years was largely responsible for that kind of estate. And that’s particularly true given what I know about artist royalties under older contracts (even assuming his success almost surely allowed him to renegotiate over the years).

Given his success as a songwriter, I would also bet his publishing money would be second in line to pay off that mortgage.

Both of these income streams would significantly dwarf the money from his record deal (even a good one).

As I said previously, whether a deal is good, bad, right, wrong, etc. can be very subjective and so I’m not commenting with respect to whether John got “ripped off by his label”. I’m just adding my perspective for the people reading that I believe that kind of rich comes from somewhere other than a record deal (regardless of whether it’s good or bad).

MA

The estate photo post was meant to imply that having a bad record deal when one is young and starting out is a valid historical precursor to achieving a successful career to be enjoyed when one is old enough to appreciate it. Sometimes referred to as ‘paying one’s dues.’

In the context of this thread, 70/30 to an unknown artist seems fair to me. Over time, with the help of a competent label, and if worthy, a talented artist can acquire a lucrative lifelong career, recognition (aka ‘exposure’ ), fame, admiration, and special perks and status, all in addition to their 30%. The label people don’t get any of that. The label people only get money, that it. Is it fair that a successful artist can enjoy a free meal at a restaurant because of their special star status created by the label but they don’t have to share the benefit of the free meal with their label partners? And who gets to use the frequent flyer miles?

My point is, the op should explore this deal a little more. Letting the opportunity slip by will only result in bitterness every time he hears “Old Man Down the Road” on the radio.

 

[gln1955]

The estate photo post was meant to imply that having a bad record deal when one is young and starting out is a valid historical precursor to achieving a successful career to be enjoyed when one is old enough to appreciate it. Sometimes referred to as ‘paying one’s dues.’

In the context of this thread, 70/30 to an unknown artist seems fair to me. Over time, with the help of a competent label, and if worthy, a talented artist can acquire a lucrative lifelong career, recognition (aka ‘exposure’ ), fame, admiration, and special perks and status, all in addition to their 30%. The label people don’t get any of that. The label people only get money, that it. Is it fair that a successful artist can enjoy a free meal at a restaurant because of their special star status created by the label but they don’t have to share the benefit of the free meal with their label partners? And who gets to use the frequent flyer miles?

My point is, the op should explore this deal a little more. Letting the opportunity slip by will only result in bitterness every time he hears “Old Man Down the Road” on the radio.

Doubling down on the wretched advice.

Are just trolling or what?

 

[JimmyM]

The estate photo post was meant to imply that having a bad record deal when one is young and starting out is a valid historical precursor to achieving a successful career to be enjoyed when one is old enough to appreciate it. Sometimes referred to as ‘paying one’s dues.’

In the context of this thread, 70/30 to an unknown artist seems fair to me. Over time, with the help of a competent label, and if worthy, a talented artist can acquire a lucrative lifelong career, recognition (aka ‘exposure’ ), fame, admiration, and special perks and status, all in addition to their 30%. The label people don’t get any of that. The label people only get money, that it. Is it fair that a successful artist can enjoy a free meal at a restaurant because of their special star status created by the label but they don’t have to share the benefit of the free meal with their label partners? And who gets to use the frequent flyer miles?

My point is, the op should explore this deal a little more. Letting the opportunity slip by will only result in bitterness every time he hears “Old Man Down the Road” on the radio.

Right, because everybody has had a career resurgence like John Fogerty did.

There are much better ways of getting attention than trolling.

 

[Music Attorney]

The estate photo post was meant to imply that having a bad record deal when one is young and starting out is a valid historical precursor to achieving a successful career to be enjoyed when one is old enough to appreciate it. Sometimes referred to as ‘paying one’s dues.’

I have no idea what you mean by “a valid historical precursor” and generalities like a “successful career” and “paying one’s dues” make a substantive response impossible. I’m going to assume (hope) you are not suggesting that a bad record deal leads to (i.e., is a precursor to) a successful career. That concept is demonstrably false. If you mean an artist should accept a bad record deal as part of paying one’s dues, then you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Thankfully, not everyone shares that view including BMG who recently pledged to review all of its contracts “Mindful of the music industry’s record of shameful treatment of black artists.”

In the context of this thread, 70/30 to an unknown artist seems fair to me.

OK.

Over time, with the help of a competent label, and if worthy, a talented artist can acquire a lucrative lifelong career, recognition (aka ‘exposure’ ), fame, admiration, and special perks and status, all in addition to their 30%. The label people don’t get any of that. The label people only get money, that it.

Again, way too many generalities to have any kind of useful conversation, but even with that caveat, you're still wrong. In the music business, there are all kinds of label people who enjoy status, fame, admiration, and other perks (including free meals) as a function of being the A&R person, label head, or other key personnel involved with a talented artist. It may not translate to screaming fans, but the fame, admiration, and perks are every bit as real. Some of the biggest restaurants, bars, private golf clubs, and other businesses actively lure label executives with freebies in the hopes that the talent will come with the executives.

Is it fair that a successful artist can enjoy a free meal at a restaurant because of their special star status created by the label but they don’t have to share the benefit of the free meal with their label partners? And who gets to use the frequent flyer miles?

I'll leave you to decide whether something is fair, but, again, you're 100% wrong about free meals and free flights, for that matter.

My point is, the op should explore this deal a little more.

Agreed and I said as much in a previous post.

Letting the opportunity slip by will only result in bitterness every time he hears “Old Man Down the Road” on the radio.

This is conclusory. First, you have no idea whether "letting the opportunity slip by" will result in bitterness even once, let alone every time he hears a song. Second, what if a better opportunity comes by, but the OP is signed to this opportunity? I would imagine the only bitterness at that point would be for signing the first deal. Third, I have had many clients say "thank you" after following my recommendation to let the "opportunity slip by". In fact, one of the most common calls I get is from a client saying "How do I get out of my deal?". The notion that the OP should sign the deal because not signing it "will only result in bitterness" is wildly speculative, at best.

 

[SXema]

Record labels, releasing albums ... those things are no longer worth anything. get a management team with good social media consultants

 

[SXema]

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Right, because everybody has had a career resurgence like John Fogerty did.

There are much better ways of getting attention than trolling.

Strike one, two and three have been thrown at least. I used the Ignore button. Poof.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Right, because everybody has had a career resurgence like John Fogerty did.

There are much better ways of getting attention than trolling.

I wish “lownering” became a thing again. I appreciated the silent protest approach

 

[Wood and Wire]

I wish that were true...
But all they really need is a dream.
Scammers love to prey on dreams -- and vanity.
Modeling "schools" are famous for this. "For Just A Small Fee" they will enroll you in classes in hair, makeup, posture, etc, and all it takes to get the ball rolling is someone telling you you're photogenic. "You could be a star!" "Top models pull down $10,000 a day!" "Let me sign you up for some head shots - you're going to need a professional portfolio..."

I have no issue with legitimate labels and agents taking their percentage when they are actually delivering on their promises, and I absolutely agree, that situation requires a legitimate marketable product. But scammers just need your name on a contract, and a collection agency...

That just is not a real world comparison.

Record labels don't go around tricking everyone with stars in their eyes, into signing a contract, that suddenly entitles said label to the wannabes savings, or deeds to their home.

If they haven't advanced the artist any money, the artist doesn't owe the label any money back (and not all advances are deemed recoupable).

If the artist never ends up recording with the label, there is no product for the label to fleece the artist on.

Now, there are situations where a label may decide not to release an album - and depending on the circumstances, the band may need to pay off the costs incurred.

Equally, there are sometimes nefarious contractual clauses, where labels / managers may continue to be entitled to a percentage of an artist's earnings, after the various parties have gone their separate ways.

Both of those are reasons why you need a specialist music contract lawyer.


But record labels are not just signing anybody that looks gullible.

Potential artists have to be viably successful, or there is nothing to exploit, and no return on investment.


Agents, on the other hand can make promises, without ever delivering, and continue to charge you for the privilege - and you can fire them.

Schools, and tech companies are just as capable of siphoning the cash out of your pockets, with the promise of unlocking the barriers to your success.

 

[ardgedee]

Those two rubes who left their paying jobs at the record label to invest in new talent are truly the ones in danger here, not the op.

That's not anything the OP needs to be concerned with.

 

[TerriblePeril]

So... /thread?
We all agree?
It’s done?

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yep, they'll fronting money to get us to play live at big event. Thing is, we can't afford lawyer yet

Thank you! But we can't afford to hire lawyer and manager yet. We're really new in this industry and don't know anyone. The label produce our songs, promote us, make video clip, etc. They'll give us stages and book places for us.
no, they'll give us 30% from digital selling and 70% from live performances

I think you should do it.

Let me begin by saying I think you're going to get screwed in ways you can't possibly imagine, but here's the thing... If you do it and they're legit, then all your wildest dreams may come true. If you do it and end up losing your life savings for the next 35 years, then you have a good story and probably enough material to write a book about it. Just take notes during the adventure.

So it looks like you get the most money from live events. But considering the entire planet is in the middle of a pandemic, where exactly are these live events supposed to take place?

And let us know when the book comes out.

 

[swarfrat]

You wouldn't happen to be part of a small startup record label would you Cliff?