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Grocery store behavior.

#61
Quickie said:
The mother, looked at the woman and said, "Or he will grow up taking whatever he want's, possibly your daughters virginity."
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Zing! TD with a 2-point conversion for mom!

And if she's the kind of mom who actually follows through with a negative consequence for an inappropriate behavior, she's truly a hero.

Nosy Nelly is one of those bleeding hearts "child abuse" knee-jerk over-sensitive finger pointing meddlers. Her own children would probably turn out to be little hellions, but she's got all kinds of advice for other people on how to raise their children.

You shouldn't have held back Quickie. Had I been there, I'd have laughed out loud.
 
#62
As with any divisive and emotive subject, views are often firmly entrenched. I am in no way saying that I am sort of super-parent with a magic wand. Many a night I've fretted tearfully about if we are doing the right thing and worry how my kids will turn out, as I am sure you do as parents. At birth, they were no different from anybody elses kids...we all start with a blank canvas, and the experiences and environment we expose them to colours (thats 'colors' to you yanks :)) how they develop their understanding of how the world works. However, thanks to my dad, I was taught that you don't get your own way by throwing your weight around. Conflict resolution is infinitely more satisfying if you've reasoned and talked to your kid than if you've give 'em a whack? Again, I've never hit my kid, so I'm only guessing. If you cannot reason with your kid, then what has happened in their life up to that point to allow them to get so out of control that the only way to win is with a smack?

Of course I am not comparing mild corporal punishment with systematic and sustained brutality, and the more mature and sensible readers will know that. I do however see them at extreme ends of the same continuous spectrum. The vast majority of 'spankers' will never go beyond the mild end, but I have no doubt that it is a scale that is gradually slid down by a small number of parents. My point is, if you didn't step on the spectrum at all, you remove the possibility of ever going down that road.

I respect anybody's right to do what they feel is best for their kids. We all choose our own path and I choose not to go down the path that involves giving a six year old anything that constitutes a smack.
 
#63
macaroni tony said:
Right - and no one here believes that their children should be spanked in anger. Even pro-whoopin folks like myself are in agreement there.

Just wanted to clear that up, in case it was a misconception. Carry on :)
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So when do you 'whoop' your kids, if not at the end of your tether 'in anger'? Are you saying you do it when you are cool, calm and rational, even before things have gotten out of hand? Not trying to provoke you, genuinely misunderstand your comment.
 
#64
Tituscrow said:
As with any divisive and emotive subject, views are often firmly entrenched. I am in no way saying that I am sort of super-parent with a magic wand. Many a night I've fretted tearfully about if we are doing the right thing and worry how my kids will turn out, as I am sure you do as parents. At birth, they were no different from anybody elses kids...we all start with a blank canvas, and the experiences and environment we expose them to colours (thats 'colors' to you yanks :)) how they develop their understanding of how the world works. However, thanks to my dad, I was taught that you don't get your own way by throwing your weight around. Conflict resolution is infinitely more satisfying if you've reasoned and talked to your kid than if you've give 'em a whack? Again, I've never hit my kid, so I'm only guessing. If you cannot reason with your kid, then what has happened in their life up to that point to allow them to get so out of control that the only way to win is with a smack?

Of course I am not comparing mild corporal punishment with systematic and sustained brutality, and the more mature and sensible readers will know that. I do however see them at extreme ends of the same continuous spectrum. The vast majority of 'spankers' will never go beyond the mild end, but I have no doubt that it is a scale that is gradually slid down by a small number of parents. My point is, if you didn't step on the spectrum at all, you remove the possibility of ever going down that road.

I respect anybody's right to do what they feel is best for their kids. We all choose our own path and I choose not to go down the path that involves giving a six year old anything that constitutes a smack.
Click to expand...

Isn't that kind of living in fear though? I mean even if you don't spank, you can do as much and sometimes in different ways A LOT MORE damage with verbal abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse. I don't have kids yet, I really do want them..I do. I love watching kids and having them at the house, I love my nieces and nephews, but I think there is always a balance in everything. No matter what method of discipline you may use, it needs to come at the right time, not in anger, the child needs to understand what it is for amongst a host of other things. Just as there are those that take spanking too far, there are many who verbally abuse without spanking.

Now, I know it seems like I have a lot of opinion for a person without kids, but I am just trying to interject not say anything about being wrong, or anything else...My father is a minister, now we don't agree on a lot of things, but the focus of his ministry is family, parenting, and marriage. So I have been drilled with a lot of this stuff my entire life. Which I suppose has it more at the forefront of my mind than some others without children. My father did spank me, and I must say that despite not caring for most of the religious crowd to a point, I respect him and I cannot think of any person that would have been more of a blessing to have as a Father. He always disciplined me in love, made it very clear he loved me despite the little hellion I was. (You gotta have a black sheep, or in my case more like a black dragon). Noone should ever discipline their child in anger, be it physically, or verbally, or any other way.

There were a few times when my actions made my father livid. He did maintain his calm though, and he had me go and think about it, and he would join me shortly. (boy did I wish he didn't come sometimes). However when he actually got to the act of disciplining me (though in a timely manner, I would know what it was for), it was not done out of anger.

Words out of anger can be just as dangerous.
 
#65
Tituscrow said:
So when do you 'whoop' your kids, if not at the end of your tether 'in anger'? Are you saying you do it when you are cool, calm and rational, even before things have gotten out of hand? Not trying to provoke you, genuinely misunderstand your comment.
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"Whoopin" was tongue-in-cheek :)

And I don't have kids right now...but on the occasion I have to spank my nephews, I was cool, calm and collected. I made sure they knew what they were getting spanked for, and made sure I told them that I loved them before the day was out. But I've always done that anyway :)

EDIT: I just reread your post. To more properly answer your question, I resorted to corporal punishment for my nephews when they were told what not to do and why enough times for them to understand how wrong their actions were. At a certain point, the need arose to attach a "feeling" to their "understanding." The bad behavior didn't continue after that.
 
#66
MJ5150 said:
I don't remember any repeated threats of discipline as a child, and I never did it to my children. I got, and so did my kids, a warning along with a suggested course of action to correct the socially unacceptable behavior. Failure to comply resulted in age/situation appropriate discipline.

-Mike
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same here... immediate correction of the issue. repeated over several years for each issue ... they understand the one warning followed by discipline. It's all about being consistent.
 
#67
dbhokie said:
Isn't that kind of living in fear though? I mean even if you don't spank, you can do as much and sometimes in different ways A LOT MORE damage with verbal abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse. I don't have kids yet, I really do want them..I do. I love watching kids and having them at the house, I love my nieces and nephews, but I think there is always a balance in everything. No matter what method of discipline you may use, it needs to come at the right time, not in anger, the child needs to understand what it is for amongst a host of other things. Just as there are those that take spanking too far, there are many who verbally abuse without spanking.

Now, I know it seems like I have a lot of opinion for a person without kids, but I am just trying to interject not say anything about being wrong, or anything else...My father is a minister, now we don't agree on a lot of things, but the focus of his ministry is family, parenting, and marriage. So I have been drilled with a lot of this stuff my entire life. Which I suppose has it more at the forefront of my mind than some others without children. My father did spank me, and I must say that despite not caring for most of the religious crowd to a point, I respect him and I cannot think of any person that would have been more of a blessing to have as a Father. He always disciplined me in love, made it very clear he loved me despite the little hellion I was. (You gotta have a black sheep, or in my case more like a black dragon). Noone should ever discipline their child in anger, be it physically, or verbally, or any other way.

There were a few times when my actions made my father livid. He did maintain his calm though, and he had me go and think about it, and he would join me shortly. (boy did I wish he didn't come sometimes). However when he actually got to the act of disciplining me (though in a timely manner, I would know what it was for), it was not done out of anger.

Words out of anger can be just as dangerous.
Click to expand...

Good point, words can be far more damaging than hands. Again, I am not saying my way is the best way or the only way, but it is MY way for MY kids.

Looking back to when they were very young and the tantrums started, I remember how easy it could have been to get drawn in to a battle. But the best tactic we employed, once you realise that most bad behaviours are merely different manifestations of attention seeking behaviour, was to simply ignore. Damn hard as that is, after hours of standing your ground, kids will eventually capitulate, because all they want is your time, your affection and your touch.

We had a saying for about a year "I want doesn't get". And we stuck to it. No ice cream in the park, no watching cartoons, no weekend treats. Breaks your heart to see your kids so sad and hear them plead. But a cuddle and the calm reassertion that you mean it eventually paid off, for us anyway. I can take them into any restaurant and they know how to behave, and get positive attention as a result to reinforce it. They are a treat for whoevers company they are in. They have manners and compassion for their peers. I am unbelievably proud of how they are growing up.

Yes, they are kids, and of course they can be a bit mischievous and do things that frustrate and annoy us as parents. But to bring this full circle to the OP's story, if my kids had demanded sweeties at the checkout, one look would have said "I don't think so". They would not be publicly chastised or humiliated, and 5 minutes later, they'd have forgotten they'd ever wanted the sweets, because we'd be outside and I'd steer the conversation to shapes in the clouds, or some other such child centred nonsense!
 
#68
Tituscrow said:
At birth, they were no different from anybody elses kids...
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Yes, they were.

Tituscrow said:
we all start with a blank canvas,
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No, we don't.

While I believe "nurture" is a bigger component than "nature" - we do have inherent personality traits with which we are born.

Tituscrow said:
Conflict resolution is infinitely more satisfying if you've reasoned and talked to your kid than if you've give 'em a whack?
Click to expand...

Conflict resolution is infinitely more satisfying if it resolves the conflict.

Tituscrow said:
If you cannot reason with your kid, then what has happened in their life up to that point to allow them to get so out of control that the only way to win is with a smack?
Click to expand...

Often nothing has happened. That is part of the issue. Rationality and the ability to reason are not inherent - they're learned, and your average 2-3 year old doesn't possess either.
 
#72
aborgman said:
Yes, they were.

No, we don't.

While I believe "nurture" is a bigger component than "nature" - we do have inherent personality traits with which we are born.

Conflict resolution is infinitely more satisfying if it resolves the conflict.

Often nothing has happened. That is part of the issue. Rationality and the ability to reason are not inherent - they're learned, and your average 2-3 year old doesn't possess either.
Click to expand...

Ok. I concede that of course not all newborns are identical in the truest sense of the word, but surely that is the best point in their life where the nurture component can be dominant? A child may be born with any number of genetic conditions or with birth complications that can manifest themselves later as 'bad behaviour' and I in no way intend to trivialise this. But the truth is, that is with a tiny minority of children. I don't agree that we are born with personality traits as such, i believe we learn them. If a quick-tempered, violent mother gives birth, and her child is adopted into a calm, non-violent home, will it grow up quick-tempered and violent regardless? I guess it depends on what you define as a 'trait'

The home environment, for me, is a far more significant aspect of a childs development, and believe me, I've seen evidence of this day in, day out for 25 years in my job. But that's why it's called the nature/nurture 'debate', because there is no consensus either way. Individual experiences make you lean one way or the other.

Your point about conflict resolution. Sounds like you mean 'win at no matter what cost or course of action', which for some involves smacking kids.

And yes, of course rationality and the ability to reason are learned. I just prefer to show my kids that the way to learn this is not with a thump from me if they play up.
 
#73
guy n. cognito said:
Titus row, you need to go check out the "restaurant bans kids" thread. Actions like that are the direct result of the " just ignore him" crowd. ;)
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Yes, ive been reading it with some interest, and consciously chose not to contribute. This thread however just drew me in...

Feel free to ignore.
 
#78
knucklehead G said:
Primus were awesome? Or should it be was? Honest question, I try to have a functional understanding of grammar and I may have been doing it wrong all these years. I guess I can see it working either way.
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Chortle. It's 'were' this side of the pond.

I'll bow out here, I've said my piece.

Peace.
 

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