• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Group Dynamics Issue

#61
Short version of what's possibly happening : guitar player likes being in the band, is all about music but lacks or has no taste for social relationships. If he's like this, a band dinner is a burden but he doesn't want to get into conflict and doesn't know how to defend his point of view, hence the lies, made up excuses and pasive aggressive behavior.

Simple possible resolution in this case : put the guitar player in charge of welcoming the singer and working out the tunes with her.

Keep it all about music. A band isn't a bunch of friends, it's a project. People will do what it takes to work together but Nothing more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim622, IamGroot, instrumentalist and 1 other person
#62
glocke1 said:
I think you are asking/expecting too much and possibly exceeding boundaries. The people I'm playing with now? They're politics aside (theirs are different than mine), we all get along well enough at rehearsals, and so far theres usually been down time at rehearsals for socializing...
Click to expand...
The point is he'll say that he wants to be involved and then always make terrible (Chunk from Goonies style) excuses to get out of it. Not socialising wouldn't be a big deal. But the point that bothers me is the backing out. A "no" would be absolutlely fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcake
#63
Jokei said:
That's really the nail on the head, although I'll add (in reference to the next paragraph) that I don't expect us to be "friends", but getting along well is imho very helpful. He's stated that social things aren't really for him - although thinking on it, I'm not clear if this was band or in general.

As a little addendum, my day job involves working with "adults with learning disabilities and challenging behaviour" which is in my work environment exclusively autism... that gives me some insight into different personalities and their needs. Although I think being a human being gives people that too.
Click to expand...

From your first comments about his social awkwardness, I thought "the guitarist sounds as though he's on the ASD Spectrum", especially the "not comfortable in his own skin" bit you mentioned. Does he make eye contact at all? Does he write the songs away from the rehearsal room? Do you and he get together to co-write?

From reading the posts, it really does sound as though he's not a good fit personally. However, the issue is more how do you let him down gently / with a positive spin?

Although you don't have to be friends with your band mates, it helps that you get on with them on a personal level. Difficult personalities cause destructive friction in bands. At the end of the day, it's a team effort, and as Band Leader, you're the Team Captain. If one of your team members isn't "playing the game" then they don't have the best interests of the team at heart.

Start looking for another guitarist, and make sure you and the drummer meet up with them in a social context first, before you enter the rehearsal room, try to make a social connection, see what makes them tick, more importantly, see if you actually get on with them first. It takes a bit more time, but it's an important working relationship, so it pays off to take a bit of time.
 
#64
Welll, ASD is my area of speciality. Yeah, absolutely I'd like it to be on good terms - certainly wouldn't want him to feel bad about it, but I know it would upset me (a bit) if I were in his shoes.

To go back to the ASD, he's really good at improvising - but, he's very, very precise in everything else and he does seem, if not "upset", then bothered if things go awry/not to schedule/are "different" - he's been incredibly insular during auditioning others, eye contact is certainly not something he seems comfortable with.

So, I can bear all my training in mind. Thing is, the guys I day job with are severely autistic and I don't want to treat him in that way - which is what I'm skilled at, my guys seem to need an almost mantra-like level of verbal reassurance when their things don't go to plan. This guy, I think is gonna be angry (just to be clear, I certainly don't think there's ANY danger of that getting physical), I think he will get heated, but I don't think I'll see total meltdown - and if there is, as the bearer of the bad news I don't think he'd accept any reassurances I could give.

I'm gonna speak to him round lunch time. Thanks everyone for letting me vent and get my thoughts and approach more coherent. I know what I've got to do, it's not you, it's me ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1bassleft, Drgonzonm and SLO Surfer
#65
Jokei said:
But the point that bothers me is the backing out. A "no" would be absolutely fine.
Click to expand...

A bit of speculation, based on the assumption that your guitarist is like me. I think he is.

If so, he'll find "hanging out" quite a challenge, and maybe not enjoyable at all. Not wanting to be the dealbreaker, he may not want to say "no" or cannot even find a nice way to say "no". So he says yes.

And as the "hanging out" thing draws near, (I'm deliberately putting this in quote marks) he sort of freaks out, and may not even be aware of it. Still not wanting to offend you, he still can't say no. Hence the excuses.

Now I am aware this is all speculation on my part, and I'm certainly not tellng you to put up with a difficult person, but I think that between you two, some issues have not been addressed.
Like: you said a "no" would be absolutely fine. Have you told him that? (Have you told him one on one? There are social pressure issues about declining to hang out.)
And you say he contributes a lot to the music, so does he feel appreciated for it? Have you specifically told him whether you appreciate it? Has he said whether he feels appreciated?

Again, if he's a dick, lose him. Life's too short. But if he's like me, an honest one-on-one conversation clearing this stuff up may make a ton of difference. He may be thankful for the opportunity to really speak his mind whether or not he ends up leaving.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1bassleft and Skybone
#66
Hey, I've absolutely told him "no" is a fine answer and explained it helps me to plan things (that's not strictly true, as I cope well ad hoc, but it gives him a decent out I think).

I'll give a "hell yeah" to is he praised, the rest of us are really good at telling him and each other when our parts are worthwhile/good. I think that's hugely important to "team building" and hopefully when we're going through stuff that we all like we can feel a bit more, err "rocking". The writing process is roughly 50/50 between me (bass) and him (guitar), the drummer heavily contributes to arrangements and sometimes (rarely) comes in with a couple of riffs (that are good). Certainly myself and drummer are quite vocal in our praise, whether he accepts/understands that we genuinely mean that... I don't know.

Outside of band some of my circle of friends are "clubbers" and quite into their party scene - I'm more a pub/pint kind of guy... they still ask if I'm up for "banging music" and I'll tend to make a joke of "nope, too old and boring", I'm confident they know it's not my thing, but I'll happily join them at a pub/bbq or something where I can talk to them not have to scream over intense bass... but that's me and everyone's different, the guitarist knows it's no problem if he attends anything or not (other than practice), he's welcome if he wants and if he doesn't want then, that's cool too, have fun doing what you like in your own time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: instrumentalist
#68
Jokei said:
To go back to the ASD, he's really good at improvising - but, he's very, very precise in everything else and he does seem, if not "upset", then bothered if things go awry/not to schedule/are "different" - he's been incredibly insular during auditioning others, eye contact is certainly not something he seems comfortable with.
Click to expand...

That's why I think he's borderline, maybe high functioning Aspergers? He's managed to cope in social situations, but can't really seem to "read" and interact well with others (especially your old singer!). My wife is an Autism Nurse Practitioner, so I get to hear loads of ASD related stuff, that makes me think of certain people I've come across through the years, be it socially or in band situations. Knowing a bit about it certainly explains some people I've met! :D

You might need to rely on your professional skills in dealing with him, certainly in keeping calm and explaining things in a non-confrontational manner.

Good luck with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1bassleft and instrumentalist
#69
Jokei said:
Ok, so this is my first thread: I guess I'm defacto band leader as I put it all together...
We're an originals band, looking to gig, record and see how far we can push it.
Its relatively early days, we've been together almost a year. Our first singer quit at the start of January, I've since found out she had problems with the guitarist.

Our guitarist, on a personal level is quite a difficult person. Personally, I think we all need to get along and be able to spend time together if this is going to work out, every couple of months we'd try and do something together, pub, dinner, something relaxed and comfortable. The guitarist generally says "yes" and then makes what seem like crappy excuses to bail... It's not that big a deal, but the lying gets to me a bit and I feel that if things go well with the band, this is going to be more of an issue. There's other things, he's excellent at his instrument, knows a lot of theory, but he can be quite damning if someone else doesn't, sometimes he can just be in a bad mood at practice and it brings it down for everyone else.
Back to the singer thing, we're on speaking terms - she's a decent person and it's only a band, the split wasn't acrimonious (I thought). We've met for social drinks (with her husband) and she said the guitarist made her feel quite uncomfortable :( there was no elaboration there and I won't see her for a few weeks.

We've been doing auditions and the new singer looks to be a lady - she's excellent, but now I'm worried that things are going to be difficult for her.

So, I've spoken to the drummer and he saids he's uneasy about the guitarist, but maybe he's just terrible in social situations (I agree). I spoke to the guitarist last night and he was very unhappy with me. I'm pretty cool about it (I think) and I don't want to knee-jerk boot him for that, but the singer stuff really bothers me, as does the question of what's this going to be like in a year or so?

I think I know what I have to do though, the only thing I honestly think holding me back is that it's gonna scrap half our set/material and we'll need to find a guitarist that'll fit musically.

I think laying it all down here's helped, but feedback would be appreciated - has anyone dealt with something like this?
Click to expand...

If it's not working now, it's never going to with this particular guy. If there is conflict and you have people leaving a project that isn't out the garage yet, just imagine what will happen if it gets serious.
 
#70
Unless you are in a guitar hero themed band (you NEED your Eddie Van Halen, or your Knopfler) or you are making good money out of it, I'd choose everyday a weaker but more likable person to an unbearable genius. I know confrontation can be hard, but you KNOW that, down that path, you'll end up losing more than just the first singer.
 
#71
With few exceptions, it seems as if many of the guitarists with whom I've been in projects with lately are exhibit some degree of selfishness and douche-baggery. I can overlook that if they are ready for rehearsals, gigs and are pulling their weight as far as learning songs and doing what is best for the band as a whole. When it affects the band's sound/direction/camaraderie, then it's an issue.

In a lot of towns, you can't take 3 steps without stepping on the toes of 5 guitarists, so they are often easier to replace, evne though it sucks to have to reset a little. But I would far rather be in a band with a good guitarist and great personal dynamics than in a tense band with a great one. Though in my case, it was usually a tense band with an average/poor one...In one case, the guitarist drove out most of the regular players and they have to get by on subs for 40/60% of the band...

Fortunately my project now has a great guitarist and we all get along great and the band sounds great as well. Related? You betcha....Huge difference.
 
#72
I haven't been in a band in over 20 years, partly because of "group dynamics " and i dont miss it. When I played there was a pool of bass players and you got calls for club work weddings, parties ,events, etc. Every date was a different.cast of characters. If you could play and were reliable and not a jerk, you were busy.

Thats all changed now and cover bands seem to be the only. Work and i am dreading it.
 
#74
Sorry, I don't get it. Is going to dinner with a workmate a requirement to working well together? Do you have to take your mechanic to lunch so that your oil is changed correctly?

Mike Francesa and Chris Russo never hung out together - they were the most successful sports radio duo ever, for well over a decade - lots of similar examples.
 
  • Like
Reactions: electracoyote and IamGroot
#76
Jokei said:
Ok, so this is my first thread: I guess I'm defacto band leader as I put it all together...
We're an originals band, looking to gig, record and see how far we can push it.
Its relatively early days, we've been together almost a year. Our first singer quit at the start of January, I've since found out she had problems with the guitarist.

Our guitarist, on a personal level is quite a difficult person. Personally, I think we all need to get along and be able to spend time together if this is going to work out, every couple of months we'd try and do something together, pub, dinner, something relaxed and comfortable. The guitarist generally says "yes" and then makes what seem like crappy excuses to bail... It's not that big a deal, but the lying gets to me a bit and I feel that if things go well with the band, this is going to be more of an issue. There's other things, he's excellent at his instrument, knows a lot of theory, but he can be quite damning if someone else doesn't, sometimes he can just be in a bad mood at practice and it brings it down for everyone else.
Back to the singer thing, we're on speaking terms - she's a decent person and it's only a band, the split wasn't acrimonious (I thought). We've met for social drinks (with her husband) and she said the guitarist made her feel quite uncomfortable :( there was no elaboration there and I won't see her for a few weeks.

We've been doing auditions and the new singer looks to be a lady - she's excellent, but now I'm worried that things are going to be difficult for her.

So, I've spoken to the drummer and he saids he's uneasy about the guitarist, but maybe he's just terrible in social situations (I agree). I spoke to the guitarist last night and he was very unhappy with me. I'm pretty cool about it (I think) and I don't want to knee-jerk boot him for that, but the singer stuff really bothers me, as does the question of what's this going to be like in a year or so?

I think I know what I have to do though, the only thing I honestly think holding me back is that it's gonna scrap half our set/material and we'll need to find a guitarist that'll fit musically.

I think laying it all down here's helped, but feedback would be appreciated - has anyone dealt with something like this?
Click to expand...

What made the guitarist unhappy with you? That you brought up these issues? Based on what you've posted, the guy seems difficult all around.
 
#78
buldog5151bass said:
Sorry, I don't get it. Is going to dinner with a workmate a requirement to working well together? Do you have to take your mechanic to lunch so that your oil is changed correctly?

Mike Francesa and Chris Russo never hung out together - they were the most successful sports radio duo ever, for well over a decade - lots of similar examples.
Click to expand...

Re-read, it explains everything.

Anyway, done dusted, better than expected, don't feel great about it.
Very definitely did my best to be nice, complimentary and positive... I think he just wanted to get away from me when it was out in the open though, which I do feel crappy about, but that's not an unreasonable thing for him to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DirtDog, Skybone, PlatoFunFactory and 5 others

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back