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Guitar player, timing discussion

#41
Bass Viking said:
I know what you’re saying and I agree with the sentiment, it’s just the way you worded it. :laugh:
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I've heard this early on and have repeated to other musicians (not ones in the same band though). The wording I heard was along the lines of "try to play with others who are better than you" and it was followed up with "it's time to move on when you are the better musician". The band I'm in now puts me at the top of the heap. 70 years old and the fact that they are a great bunch of people who always compliment me about my playing abilities, and that we do a wide variety of music, I'm OK with it. :hyper:
 
#45
Record it, with each guitar DI into a unique channel in your recorder, with a mic picking up drums and bass (and vocals) in a third channel.

make note of who is in which channel- or else that's a source of arguments.

Play back and mute one guitar, listening only to him and the drums. now mute him and unmute yourself so you only hear you with the drums. Which one is correct? are both slightly off in different directions?

Listen to it together - don't go "SEE?? THERE, THAT WAS YOUUU!", just set the output, say "this is playback of guitar 1 with the band." and play it back. "This is playback of guitar 2 with the band." and play it back. If it didn't already become clear in discussion, point out which guitarist was doing which. If you heard something in your own playing, make mental note to fix that, and bring it up publicly if you want to. Let HIM (or other band members) find issues with his guitar playing.

You are just recording and playing back, that's it.

Still could be arguments, but should be better than it was.

you could also playback only the two guitars, maybe panned one way and the other, since it coudl be that either guitar sounds good without the other, but only together do they sound wrong.
 
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#46
Lots of good info in this thread, I'm picking up a lot.

I've noticed that whenever there's multiple guitars or a guitar and keyboard, whatever, there needs to be a conversation about who's playing what. Usually someone gets the fun lead riff that people associate with the song, and someone gets to sit there rocking back and forth between two notes on the off-beats.

You get two people fighting for their part to be out front, that's how you wind up with volume issues, too. It's so hard trying to convince people that they need to play *less* for things to sound better.
 
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#47
All good stuff above. And welcome. We, at least many of us, are actually musicians first and bassists second, so, yup, you've come to the right place! ;)

All I might add to the above is part of being a "pro" is not necessarily being flashy. It's being able for example to go into a studio, or a setting where everyone is way more experienced than you, and NOT cause a train wreck.

FIRST order of business in doing that is TIME -- you simply MUST have an internal clock, an awareness of WHERE the beat is, then whether or not you want to play slightly ahead of it or behind it, or right on top of it, then when you decide, you need to do it like a machine.

That skill is something that GOOD bassists and drummers, I believe, intuitively develop as part of their skill set. Others need to be taught. Your guy might be teachable, or not. But it'll be remedial, like with a click track.
 
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#48
stomp944 said:
Multi-track recording sounds a little ambitious but I'll look into click track and metronome. As several have pointed out, I accept that we may both be wrong and/or off in timing. And we may have more than just this issue. Still, it has to settle somewhere, or we will end up with a fairly 'meh' set list - or parting ways. Input very much appreciated!
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It need not be that complicated. If you have an iPad of recent vintage, GarageBand will do the job. Set up a track with a click at the right tempo. Record over two added tracks in stereo using the internal iPad mic. EQ the two guitars’ sounds differently, just to determine to who is playing what. Press record and start to play. You may be surprised at what you find out.

Time-aligning the click to the drums on the recording may tell everyone a lot, much of it very humbling for everyone. To paraphrase Shakira, Click Don’t Lie. Learn from it.

Freekmagnet said:
Back in the day, our drummer used to play a click track over the PA while the band played at rehearsal so that everyone could hear it. As a band, we got out time down real quick.
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This is a wonderful suggestion!

Count (haha) on the drummer to oppose it. But it’s still the right idea.
 
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#50
stomp944 said:
Lurking guitar player here (now ducking). This forum, while established for bass players, always seems to have good discussions about band dynamics. This topic seems to straddle a few categories, so I figured I'd see if anyone wanted to weigh in here. Bass player is our BL, btw, but is very non-confrontational and I pick up a lot of the slack.
I'm playing lead and rhythm in a classic & alt rock band for two and a half years (minus the obvious). Nobody in the band is a pro, except the drummer, though the potential is there to be really good. We rehearse weekly and have worked at getting "tight" for a long time now yet made only some progress. This includes both guitars going off independently to practice parts together. A problem (besides sound levels and members using rehearsal time for practice) is how to talk with the other guitar player about poor timing. While not calling out the individual, the drummer has raised it. I've raised it. We all agree it needs attention, but not if there is a specific cause. Easy Petty songs aren't bad. Songs where I am or virtually the only guitar (ie Coll.Soul, Shine), we sound tight (and I can hear it if I'm not!). But for other songs, as soon as two guitars come in we sound like a wall of noise. It gets better if I adjust my play to match the other guitar, but not great. The other guitar does recognize when we sound like crap but continually seeks external causes to fix such as trying to show me how to play my parts. I admit when I forget a chord or get sloppy, but a dropped chord now and then doesn't ruin a whole song.
A quick song example - Foo's Learn To Fly has two different rhythm parts played simultaneously. The different chords work if played tight with the rhythm section (its Taylor and Nate, after all), but a fraction out of time, it sound like we're playing completely different songs. He's convinced that he's playing it correctly. So am I.
He was in the band before me. Confronting it is sure to end up in finger pointing. Do bass players have a teachable method for this? Am I missing something and it is not a timing issue? Is timing an irreparable issue worth leaving over?
I'm frustrated enough to consider leaving for a long time - but the members are good people, I like the songs and its better playing than not playing, since as you all know, there are guitar players littering every bloody street corner looking for a band.
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Ok so I can't give definitive advice without being there but:

1) record your practice. That should make it obvious who is out of time. (Esp if you play to a click but if your drummer is a good as you described it should still be obvious who isn't locked in)

2) often the reason a player has poor timing is the part is too technically challenging for them to play *and* leave enough room to listen. This is fixable (just practice the part until it occupies less brainpower) but isn't a quick fix and requires the player to put in the hours alone.
 

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