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Guitarist cant hear themselves

#21
4x12 are a big stage outdoors tool.

I went to a multi band metal show recently. Opening act used 1x12 up on a table, enough for the room, and the drummer was giving it plenty.

Headliner used the 4x12 triple rectifier mesa, with balanced volume but definition only existed in front of it.

Physics vs fashion.

Practically, your only way forward is elevating the 4x12. Tilting back works but it'll never happen. Downsizing, yeh right.
 
#22
We play everythng from clubs to casinos to large outdoor venues. One guitarist uses a combo amp with one 12" speaker with an 1 x 12 extension cab. The other guitarist uses a 212 combo. I use an SVT 6 PRO head with a 410 cab. We never have any problems hearing each other.
 
#24
samson3382 said:
What about placing guitards amps at the ends of the stage, facing inwards? They could potentially be further from their amps, thus getting a better angle from the speaker without havining to tilt it back. Since they're using 4x12s, you'd probably get enough bleed into the vocals mics to hear out front.
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This is what we do; amps are placed to the front and sides and point in towards the stage. You get better monitoring, less interference with FOH, lower volume on stage, the audience aren't hit by beams of guitar sound from the stage. Add some guitar sound in the floor monitors, to taste. It may take some getting used to, and some are reluctant to not have the amps pointing at the back of their knees ;) but once you start doing this you'll see you'll be able to get better sound both on stage and FOH. Combine this with smaller (less wattage*) amps for the guitar players so they can get "their sound" at reasonable levels and you have something good going.

It's maybe not rock and roll enough for some, it's not the right look, but functionally it's great.

*) We played on supplied amps last Saturday and for the band playing before us we had to turn his amp towards a wall to control the levels. He had too much power and could not get the amp to break up without killing the overall balance. Don't use arena gear in small rooms ...
 
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#26
Put the 4x12 cab on a couple of milk crates, that should elevate a slant cab enough to hear (what I do with my 1960A cab). Another option is for each of your guitards to get another 4x12 cab so they have a true stack. Then only plug in the top cab - it will blast their ears off (so they'll turn down) and they'll look cool. The solution is to get a 2x12 with semi-open back, it will reduce beaminess, and they'll be heard on stage.
 
#27
mark tremonti from alter bridge uses a 12" in a slanted monitor cabinet up by his microphone in addition to his 4x12's. that would work for your situation. seeing as you have no PA, if you point the cabs up toward the players as previously suggested, then the audience will not hear the guitars correctly. they will sound dull because the high end can only be heard by the players.
 
#30
My guess is that all the guitarists are hearing is distorted noise coming from their amps since the levels are too high, which is overpowering anything else they can hear. Just ear-piercing high-frequency buzzsaw WAAAAAAAAAHH regardless of what note or chord they're attempting.

I could be wrong, but it seems as if they're overcompensating their volumes for the crowd, then realizing they can't hear themselves properly as monitors and then turn up even more as if that would help.

I do agree they have to figure out a way to turn their amps so the rest of the band can hear to stay in sync, not just their knees and the few unfortunate audience members right in front of the speakers.
 
#31
AdamR said:
That does look like a great design and its can be made as a 412. The cab I recommended to them is a Mesa Half back. Its a 412 slant cab with the top 2 speakers open in the back which I think would help greatly and they can be bought for around $400
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If they decide they may want to look at that option make sure they can try them out before they purchase. Open back cabs + metal = meh. You lose a lot of the tight low end capability and end up with mushy low end. I've never tried a half back cab though...
 
#32
I don't think you need to buy more gear, monitors, etc. Just something to elevate their cabs a foot or two.

412's are extremely directional and the top two speakers aren't angled back enough when you're backed up right in front of the rig.

They're likely running too loud for the audience members that are in the hotspot on center with their cabs.
 
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#33
maxgrant said:
Get him one of those tilt-back amp stands. Point the amp at the player.
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This. In fact, I'm looking at doing that myself. Just bought an elevated/tilted stand for when I'm using one cab, which is most of the time. It occurred to me to do this after realizing I could hear myself so much better when I had the whole stack, as I had speakers closer to my ears that were actually pointed somewhere besides my ankles. Gonna go home and mess with it in 30 minutes. Just got delivered today.
 
#35
Mesa and Carvin at least, maybe others, used to make 212's that looked just like half a 412 split the vertical way, with the bottom speaker facing forward and the top one angled back a bit. If I recall, those were easier to hear just from having 2 less speakers blaring and still ran loud enough to hurt somebody and had the fuller/bigger sound you get from running more than one speaker. I really like Mesas top half openback/bottom half sealed cabs as well.



Downside to any of those of course being the " T " look of having a wide amp on a narrow cab not passing muster with the aesthetic proclivities of our skinny string bretheren. Having a heavy, expensive amp on top of a lighter weight, less stable stack is a legitimate concern.

Fitzmaurices XF cabs address all these issues. Being a DIY'er, I'd be inclined to build them each one, just give them to them for a birthday, Christmas, fathers day, or whatever, and encourage them to load it with a pair of speakers from their 412's and see what they think, being mindful of impedance and whatever output taps their amps have.


Either that or elevate the 412'and keep using big stage gear in bars.
 
#37
Zooberwerx said:
If the guitarist can't hear himself it's usually because he's being drowned out by others on stage. They need to turn down....it's just that simple, no addt'l hardware required.

Riis
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Not in my experience ... he usually can't hear himself because he is standing with the back of his knees up against his amp, the rest of the band hear too much of him, but he can't hear himself. Step away from the amp and/or tilt it back and the difference will be obvious.
 
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#38
FretNoMore said:
Not in my experience ... he usually can't hear himself because he is standing with the back of his knees up against his amp, the rest of the band hear too much of him, but he can't hear himself. Step away from the amp and/or tilt it back and the difference will be obvious.
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During soundcheck, can he hear himself solo'd? Both my guys do use tilt-back amp stands (...very well worn!) but I still have problems with one over-saturating the stage to the point where the other has difficulty hearing his Peavey combo.

Edit: sorry, this was not intended to diminish the importance of amp placement as you've pointed out. What's sad is that our best efforts can be quickly negated by some fool with a volume knob.

Riis
 
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#39
Back in the late 90's I played with a guitar player that had a Boogie rig. Had a 4x12 behind him, but had a little Mesa 2x12 that he set right beside his vocal monitor. Loved playing with that guy, always had a reasonable stage volume. Really small gigs, it was just the 2x12 wedge and his head on a rack case so he could get to it.
 

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