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Guitarist plays too loud
- Thread starter Twobass
- Start date
Some people on this forum are way too sensitive. "Guitard" is funny, the first time I heard it I laughed, and I still get a chuckle out of it. I've played with all kinds of guitarists, some who were fantastic in every way and others who fit the guitard bill! Is it derogatory? Yeah, but this is a chat forum, out with all the PC crap, lighten up all you, we're just passing time chatting about our favorite subject! If we can't sling a few arrows (In jest) toward our six-string brothers on this forum, than things are being taken way too sereously!
Some people on this forum are way too sensitive. "Guitard" is funny, the first time I heard it I laughed, and I still get a chuckle out of it. I've played with all kinds of guitarists, some who were fantastic in every way and others who fit the guitard bill! Is it derogatory? Yeah, but this is a chat forum, out with all the PC crap, lighten up all you, we're just passing time chatting about our favorite subject! If we can't sling a few arrows (In jest) toward our six-string brothers on this forum, than things are being taken way too sereously!
Yeah, and don't get me started about keytards (10 digits so they can cop the whole audio spectrum if they want, and frequently do), and harptards (start playing about, but not exactly, half way through bar 2 and finish about 3 bars after everyone else.
My bands guitarists both use Solid State amps (100w and 30w) raised up on chairs (All we have at our disposal) for band practices, and the same amps for gigs. Both get the tone they want at more than sensible volumes, i can't actually hear the lead sometimes. I use a 500w head into a 1x15 PA Cab which is tilted back and on a chair about 2m away from me. Our volume is fine, i still use earplugs but that is more out of habit than need.
Liam
Liam
I'll come in from a guitarist's point of view since that's my main instrument, though it looks like I'll be playing more bass than guitar this year because of band schedules....
Anyway, there is some truth to a tube amp having to be at some volume to get the tone. It might mean his amp is too big for the gig and he should consider a change in gear. Then again, an amp does not have to be big to be loud. I now gig with 15 watt tube amps (Matchless Lightning 15, Mesa Transatlantic set for 15 watts, Marshall Haze 15). Yes, seriously, only 15 watts. And through a 1x12 Mesa Boogie Thiele cabinet, it's still freaking loud and it sounds damn good. In fact, was played after another band last night and the guitar player had a Mesa Rectifier 1/2 stack and my mini rig sounded SO much bigger. I use totally clean to high gain sounds. Last night, I kept turning my amp down since it was so loud for me. It's facing forward, so it doesn't bother the other guys.
BUT, I put plexiglass (like a drum shield) in front of the speaker cab so the audience doesn't get the full impact and they hear the amp from the p.a. Plexiglass shields can go a long way in helping everyone else on stage from being bombarded by a loud amp and it doesn't take much power or a large speaker cabinet to generate serious dbs on stage.
Anyway, there is some truth to a tube amp having to be at some volume to get the tone. It might mean his amp is too big for the gig and he should consider a change in gear. Then again, an amp does not have to be big to be loud. I now gig with 15 watt tube amps (Matchless Lightning 15, Mesa Transatlantic set for 15 watts, Marshall Haze 15). Yes, seriously, only 15 watts. And through a 1x12 Mesa Boogie Thiele cabinet, it's still freaking loud and it sounds damn good. In fact, was played after another band last night and the guitar player had a Mesa Rectifier 1/2 stack and my mini rig sounded SO much bigger. I use totally clean to high gain sounds. Last night, I kept turning my amp down since it was so loud for me. It's facing forward, so it doesn't bother the other guys.
BUT, I put plexiglass (like a drum shield) in front of the speaker cab so the audience doesn't get the full impact and they hear the amp from the p.a. Plexiglass shields can go a long way in helping everyone else on stage from being bombarded by a loud amp and it doesn't take much power or a large speaker cabinet to generate serious dbs on stage.
Some people on this forum are way too sensitive. "Guitard" is funny, the first time I heard it I laughed, and I still get a chuckle out of it. I've played with all kinds of guitarists, some who were fantastic in every way and others who fit the guitard bill! Is it derogatory? Yeah, but this is a chat forum, out with all the PC crap, lighten up all you, we're just passing time chatting about our favorite subject! If we can't sling a few arrows (In jest) toward our six-string brothers on this forum, than things are being taken way too sereously!
As a guitard, I agree. It's funny.
Bass -players are consistently the smartest and most musical of all members of any band they are in. That's a fact. it is our right to call the others "guitards" 'cause that's what they are! meatheads is also a good word to describe them.
Every gig I do, I am constantly worried "am I too loud?" and I am always asking if anyone else thinks I am too loud. I have always been asked to turn up, and I can't ever remember the last time someone asked me to turn down. They don't have to. I don't need the audience to hear every sour note I play at full volume. That's just bush League.
Every gig I do, I am constantly worried "am I too loud?" and I am always asking if anyone else thinks I am too loud. I have always been asked to turn up, and I can't ever remember the last time someone asked me to turn down. They don't have to. I don't need the audience to hear every sour note I play at full volume. That's just bush League.
Yes, but you don't need to rehearse 'stupid loud' and deafen everybody just to get your 'tone' that is just being inconsiderate to put it mildly. You band mates probably don't care about your 'tone', and whether the punters would notice is debatable. You can get pedals that get a good approximation, good enough to rehearse at sensible volume, been there and done it. If you want to do individual practice at high volume and get tinnitus then that is up to you. I like to leave a rehearsal without ringing ears.
Or get a smaller tube amp.
Or get a new guitarist.
Or get a new band, one with a proper guitarist.
I always carry two good sized bass rigs. Guitar player gets too loud I fire up both rigs and make the bass the prominant instrument. When he says I'm too loud I simply tell him I couldn't hear myself over the guitar. It's got the guitar player down to a reasonable level every time.
Build an speaker isolation box to set his speaker box in. Let the guitar player get his "tone" in there". If it's not loud enough, put a mic in there and give it enough juice to balance out the rehearsal/gig volume.
Update: here's a pre-built iso box with speaker/mic stand ready to go: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] or you can buy an unloaded box.
Here's some discussion on the topic: Invalid Link Removed
+1 smaller amp for gigs. Maybe with a 1x10 or 1x12 and a power attenuator/soak. Maybe Install the smaller cab in a 4x10 cab if the guitar player wants a "big" looking rig.
Here's an attenuator/soak that I picked up awhile ago: http://shop.ebay.com/vspeeds/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 Scroll down for more options.
There's even one with a line out so you can get power tube distortion at a reasonable volume out to the P.A. or mixing console for recording.
Note: the ohm rating of the attenuator is what your amp is "seeing". You can actually hook up any ohm cab or cabs no matter what the final ohm rating is. This is also a cool tool to match "mismatched" impedance cabs to your amp. Up to 160 watts. Run the attenuator wide open(no attenuation) for no distortion. Great for tube players (guitar/bass).
Update: here's a pre-built iso box with speaker/mic stand ready to go: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] or you can buy an unloaded box.
Here's some discussion on the topic: Invalid Link Removed
+1 smaller amp for gigs. Maybe with a 1x10 or 1x12 and a power attenuator/soak. Maybe Install the smaller cab in a 4x10 cab if the guitar player wants a "big" looking rig.
Here's an attenuator/soak that I picked up awhile ago: http://shop.ebay.com/vspeeds/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 Scroll down for more options.
There's even one with a line out so you can get power tube distortion at a reasonable volume out to the P.A. or mixing console for recording.
Note: the ohm rating of the attenuator is what your amp is "seeing". You can actually hook up any ohm cab or cabs no matter what the final ohm rating is. This is also a cool tool to match "mismatched" impedance cabs to your amp. Up to 160 watts. Run the attenuator wide open(no attenuation) for no distortion. Great for tube players (guitar/bass).
Agree that power soaks and attenuators are .. really ... not the same thing. I'd rather get a low watt amp and crank that one. Because, you can't change speaker behaviour with an attenuator. The speaker does not automatically "downsizes" to the right - or optimal - wattage. The speaker is still made for 50 w or 100w, and when attenuated, the speaker just don't move as much, which is detrimental to tone. Not everyhting lies in having the power amp tubes crack up a bit. And avoid Tom Scholz, that technology is 80s and much has happened since then. Have heard that many has destroyed their amps, because it wears down the tubes faster anyway. Isoaltion box and mic is more of a plausible solution. But to get an isolation box for a 4x12 seems a bit overkill.
I think the same about amps that has these "half power" switches when you just use half of the power amp tubes. say a 40w goes down to 20w. The low end punch is gone, and the speaker wont move at all. The speaker is made for max tax 40w and not 20w. When run at 20w the magnets, coils, and cone won't move at all. So that one, I've never really understood either. And it cracks up earlier and gets more compressed too.
Inane really.
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If you're really wry, cunning, and well.... real naughty, nasty... Put him on a prank. Sneak into the rehearsal space, one night, and swap out all of the tubes in his amp to lower wattages ones. And do not tell him. See if he can detect it the next day, when playing. Compliment him how much better his tone are now, and ask him "What have you done...? it sounds so much better now..."
If the amp's in his bedroom or at his place, you may run into trouble though.
I think the same about amps that has these "half power" switches when you just use half of the power amp tubes. say a 40w goes down to 20w. The low end punch is gone, and the speaker wont move at all. The speaker is made for max tax 40w and not 20w. When run at 20w the magnets, coils, and cone won't move at all. So that one, I've never really understood either. And it cracks up earlier and gets more compressed too.
Inane really.
----
If you're really wry, cunning, and well.... real naughty, nasty... Put him on a prank. Sneak into the rehearsal space, one night, and swap out all of the tubes in his amp to lower wattages ones. And do not tell him. See if he can detect it the next day, when playing. Compliment him how much better his tone are now, and ask him "What have you done...? it sounds so much better now..."
If the amp's in his bedroom or at his place, you may run into trouble though.
If the amp's in his bedroom or at his place, you may run into trouble though.
Lol yes I would think so.
[ot]
Problem is, no one asked you to judge them. It's not your job. And your methodology is suspect. Seems like you're giving out the crap you've accumulated over the years.
If we put you in the same room as Victor Wooten, think he would give you crap for being a crappy bassist? No. He's a nice guy and treats everyone with respect.
Stop. You'll be a lot happier. And you'll keep your friends longer.
Just like changing the channel on your TV, if you find some situation that doesn't suit you, move on.
Learn from Victor.
[/ot]
I have found that people turn their amps up loud so that it will mask their playing skills...or lack thereof I should say.
:scowl:
1x12 should be enough to get his "tone". Put it in a sound box or buy one with the 12 in it.
Then just put it through the P.A.
Or how about laying the amp down on the ground with the speakers facing the ground? Or maybe if you made an insulation baffle to cover the front of the speaker box, maybe it would decrease the volume enough?
Then just put it through the P.A.
Or how about laying the amp down on the ground with the speakers facing the ground? Or maybe if you made an insulation baffle to cover the front of the speaker box, maybe it would decrease the volume enough?
Yes, exactly. I would know from the very start on, that I don't belong in the same room as Victor Wooten. Before it will even happen. Just put my bass down and listen to what he plays and learn from that. If I just had to play (what the point should be, really, having two bassist playing at the same time) I would find that a situation that doesn't suit me and I would move on.
And you bet your ass that if you put this guitarist (TwoBass's guitar player) in the same room as Victor Wooten, and Victor asked him to turn it down, he pretty sure would! Then, he complies! Not until then! Why should Victors say, have more weight than the rest of TwoBass's members?
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Thing is, that this has happened to a well known (by now) guitarist in Sweden. Although this was VERY long ago. I was in a cover band with him, and we tried to nail a Zep tune down. When we discovered that he had too much trouble with one of the simplest riffs - for someone as skilled and virtuosic as him at least - the conversation went on something like this:
Drummer went:
- Hey, why don't you try to play more like this ... (handing him a guitar..) and played it right from the start on.
Guitarist:
- Well, I think Jimmy Page sucks big time anyway. [First excuse for not wanting/being able to nailing it]
Drummer:
- Well then, a more skilled guitar player like you, should be able to nail the most inane stuff also, don't you think? I can do it, and I am not even a guitarist.
Bass player (me):
- Well, Even I can play it, you should "swing it more", try to wing it instead, not being that exact and academic about it. Showed him too at the guitar.
Of course, he went sour, that someone else, that wasn't a bona fide guitar player, could do that better than him, which made the sparks flew among us all.
None of our constructive offers, helped him, and he wasn't able (willing?) to nail it no matter how he tried. He was a shredder in all other areas. Needless to say, the collaboration ended, but in a very awkward way. All of the other members, bailed out, due to different - making up - reasons "have no time, interested in other things, offer from another band ..." including me.
It ended up that all of us left, and said to him that it was for different reasons. Half a year later, he finds us playing together again, at another place, with a different guitarist, and our make up excuses had to be "Well, that other band I was in just fell through...". This comment came from all of us. You can either sack one member, or let everybody else leave. The thing is, that they don't detect this.
That's what it is. But having to do it in this "roundabout way" is wasting a lot of time for everyone involved. He eventually found out, in an akward way, that we/he really didn't belong together, and that the rest of us, fancied playing together though, but without him.
The problem is, with your statement "if you find yourself in a situation that doesn't suit you, just move on..." that it is a catch 22. Is it him or us that should move on, or be able to detect what is a situation that does not suit... him? or us?
Who's band is it? His? Ours? All? There are still a lot of people who can't detect that situation, and still clings on to a dead horse, not knowing what's wrong, even if the others have to write it on his nose.
Of course, if you're the "leader" of the band, say, providing rehearsal space for free, and even owns a PA, or a van, or something else, its' him or her that's calling the shots. Just for us to leave. No big deal. I do, and did. But today, I make no qualms about WHY I leave the situation. I don't belong, and I have no scruples of telling them why. If either they suck, or I suck. Can be both ways.
----
How much are you willing to cope with to stay in any band? The other members "idiosyncrasies"? Compromise in songs, cutting out a few chords, because they're too hard to play? Excess volume levels by OTHERS, together with artist excuses "You don't know, you're not a guitarist and by that thing, you can't make a judgement at all! ? You're just happy to play in any band, because you need playing (or neeed this gig) pretty band, so you can put up with anything? Picking up the drummer in the middle of the night?
In the end, it's all about how much validification, or CONFIRMATION, you seek from others. Nothing else. I generally don't seek validification. I couldn't care less. I eventually found out that being respectful to people, that ain't respectful themselves from the start on (I e excessive loud levels) doesn't help at all. I have so far, never experienced it, and I do not have the time anymore to find that out. And to just MOVE on and leave the situation isn't much of a help, since I do own the reharsal space, van, and PA. They rehearse without paying the slightest amount of anything, but their time. Save for the gas, they have to pay for getting there.
Do you want me to leave, and let the others still carry on, on my equipment, paying rent for it? At my house? And join another band in opposite part of town, with crummy rehearsal space, and have to pay rent for that space, and PA, and hiring a van when its called for? I just have to do this. Someone has to do the dirty job.
Too many "if's" here if you'd ask me. All this seems hypothetical to most of you, but to me, all this has actually happened. To me. Your Mileage May Vary. I only do conclusions from my own experiences. As always.
