Guitarist problems and suggestions to help the situation?

[BBQisgood]

Isn't it good to strive for improvement in a band even if nobody, no customer, is complaining?

Depends. One person's "improvement" may be another person's nagging.

 

[brianrost]

I was involved for a couple of years with a large band with horns and the whole repertoire was written parts. Myself and the guitar player suggested we try to memorise the tunes and rehearse without the charts in an attempt to avoid the lack of an organic feel that can sometimes occur with reading bands. It was met with dismay. Some players could not imagine not having a chart in front of them.

In large bands, reading charts is the norm. Expecting over a dozen people to remember complicated arrangements is a recipe for disaster.

When big bands ruled the world, they all had written arrangements. You might think that after decades, the members of Duke Ellington's band would be able to play the charts in their sleep, but new songs were being added to the book on a regular basis. If a new member joined or a sub was on the gig, the charts were essential.

Sure, if Black Sabbath did a tour with music stands on stage it would look pretty funny

 

[LBS-bass]

Depends. One person's "improvement" may be another person's nagging.

Yep, I'd say if a satisfactory quality bar is being met that makes audiences, venues, and band members happy, then personal improvement is always a good thing to strive for individually, but getting on each other about minor stuff is just nitpicking.

I tell my band members that when we get together to play through sets we're all identifying the areas where we personally need work. It shouldn't be necessary for others to point things out to us - we're adults, we can observe our own problems and work them out on our own time.

 

[Core Creek]

Yep, I'd say if a satisfactory quality bar is being met that makes audiences, venues, and band members happy, then personal improvement is always a good thing to strive for individually, but getting on each other about minor stuff is just nitpicking.

I tell my band members that when we get together to play through sets we're all identifying the areas where we personally need work. It shouldn't be necessary for others to point things out to us - we're adults, we can observe our own problems and work them out on our own time.

Well, I find that one band mate can take the role of "musical director" and point out issues in other players. But it's a tough call on how to approach someone on this.

One band I've been playing with for over a year I've become the defacto director just because I play so many instruments and know the other parts pretty well. But it was a tender approach at first. You never know how someone is going to respond when you point out a mistake. Fortunately in that band they respected my criticism and I think we definitely improved.

But in another band, I already knew the bass player was an a-hole and wasn't about to listen to criticism. So I pointed out issues to the BL and I was surprised to see they were addressed.

There's also a difference between making a mistake and never learning it correctly in the first place. On stage, the first band makes its share of mistakes, but we generally laugh them off. We know what the parts should be but mistakes happen. The second band, the bassist generally just didn't learn the parts right and played it wrong every time. Was he too lazy to learn it correctly. Is he not a good enough musician to hear he's playing it wrong?

It's a tough call to decide whether or not to address issues…

 

[LBS-bass]

Well, I find that one band mate can take the role of "musical director" and point out issues in other players. But it's a tough call on how to approach someone on this.

One band I've been playing with for over a year I've become the defacto director just because I play so many instruments and know the other parts pretty well. But it was a tender approach at first. You never know how someone is going to respond when you point out a mistake. Fortunately in that band they respected my criticism and I think we definitely improved.

But in another band, I already knew the bass player was an a-hole and wasn't about to listen to criticism. So I pointed out issues to the BL and I was surprised to see they were addressed.

There's also a difference between making a mistake and never learning it correctly in the first place. On stage, the first band makes its share of mistakes, but we generally laugh them off. We know what the parts should be but mistakes happen. The second band, the bassist generally just didn't learn the parts right and played it wrong every time. Was he too lazy to learn it correctly. Is he not a good enough musician to hear he's playing it wrong?

It's a tough call to decide whether or not to address issues…

For me it's a matter of bringing in the right people to begin with. I shouldn't have to point out their mistakes. They have ears and they know what they do wrong, just like I do. I hired them because they know how to do what they do well. I let them do it.

I do have an issue with laziness on the part of one member who doesn't concentrate well at times, and I will have to occasionally stop a song in rehearsal and just say "let's go over this again, we're dragging the tempo" or something like that. But I'm not asking for perfection from anyone. My band is pretty well polished already - in fact I've been told we sound too polished. So... that goes back to picking the right people, I guess.

 

[groove pump]

The tablet is a crutch. In one band I play with, the front man and the keyboard player use charts, but it is even worse. They won't do tablets. They insist on these giant 400 page ring binders sitting right in front of them. I think the are both hiding behind them. And they don't take time before a gig to put them in set list order. You talk about time between songs. I stand there while the flip through pages trying to find the next song. But wait, there's more! The average number of songs before we go off list is about 3.
So, I feel your pain. I keep thinking I want to quit, but a gig is a gig. I still get paid.
I just hope nobody I know shows up at those gigs.

Ugh!! I'm also feeling it. My crew got into an early summer malaise with scratchy gigs; forgetting parts of songs we've done for a long time - especially some beginnings and endings. Lead guitar guy has been too loud too often and his tone has occasionally been hideous.

But they've also been blowing off rehearsals and I'm apparently the only one feeling like we need to get our mojo back into shape. So much of a sense of just mailing it in that I've encouraged a couple pals to hold off on coming to see us for now. I'm making suggestions here and there and hoping for the best, but it seems as though we is what we is. If a better musical situation comes along, I may need to jump on it.

 

[Core Creek]

For me it's a matter of bringing in the right people to begin with. I shouldn't have to point out their mistakes. They have ears and they know what they do wrong, just like I do. I hired them because they know how to do what they do well. I let them do it.

I do have an issue with laziness on the part of one member who doesn't concentrate well at times, and I will have to occasionally stop a song in rehearsal and just say "let's go over this again, we're dragging the tempo" or something like that. But I'm not asking for perfection from anyone. My band is pretty well polished already - in fact I've been told we sound too polished. So... that goes back to picking the right people, I guess.

I never bring people in… I always join bands that are already up and running. The plus is I walk right into working situations. The minus is I have no say on who I'm playing with. I'm fine with that.

The band with the a-hole bassist - I gave them notice that I found another situation and would finish out the month and they told me to focus on the new band and no hard feelings. I got 30 or so paid gigs, didn't have to worry about booking or personnel, and got to do what I do best… just play.

I shouldn't have to point out people's mistakes, sure. But in that particular situation it was a bunch of musicians doing decent gigs but weren't exactly the best musicians. I took what I got and moved on when I could. They did the same…

 

[LBS-bass]

I never bring people in… I always join bands that are already up and running. The plus is I walk right into working situations. The minus is I have no say on who I'm playing with. I'm fine with that.

The band with the a-hole bassist - I gave them notice that I found another situation and would finish out the month and they told me to focus on the new band and no hard feelings. I got 30 or so paid gigs, didn't have to worry about booking or personnel, and got to do what I do best… just play.

I shouldn't have to point out people's mistakes, sure. But in that particular situation it was a bunch of musicians doing decent gigs but weren't exactly the best musicians. I took what I got and moved on when I could. They did the same…

Yeah, I hear you. I have joined bands with less than stellar players in the past and the problem is that nobody really wants to be told they're doing a bad job. Unless I have a mentor/mentee understanding with a player, I just deal with it if I can, and if I can't then I know my days are numbered. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

 

[bbao]

I'm not necessarily opposed to music on stage. Originals, club bands, slick corporate bands, tributes, everyone should remember their parts. For a wedding band, it might be beneficial to have music on stage if you have hundreds of songs that you can pull out as a request. I play in an acoustic duet where we literally have hundreds of songs we'll play upon request. Our longest gig was a private event wherein we played just over eight hours, that's eight hours of playing not including breaks, and didn't play anything more than once. In a situation like that it's fantastic to have music on stage.

I agree that it would be good to have an ipad (and understandable to have your eyes glued in this situation) for backup songs/requests which we've never played before/only ever played once. But I feel that the main set list which we've played over the years should at least have a little familiarity.

I am a fiddler and mandolinist as well as a bass player. One of the reasons I quit music for a long time was this: A bandleader, singer, guitarist, etc. taking too much control of the situation or giving feedback on my (and others') performance(s) when they weren't able to match my (or others') skill level.

Money as a motivator had caused all sorts of problems with relationships.

I'm not sure about best musician. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I, for example, have barely any background on music theory which is why I compensate by memorizing, learning applicable aspects of bass playing/music theory etc. to make sure that I am not the weakest link. But I will say that I probably have the best ears in the group.

Our songs are not exactly technical since we're a Rnb/pop band. I could definitely play his parts on bass (or guitar if the guitarist ever wanted to swap) but the rest of the band does not feel that it's right having the bass fill that part. I imagine it's because since the guitar is playing that part in the actual song, we still want to maintain a little bit of accuracy - at least for audience sake.

 

[pepj]

In situations like this, I ask what does he bring versus what does he cost.
And then the next question is how realistic it is to attract someone better.
I am not convinced he can change these perceived faults after doing same for so long??

 

[basseux]

I imagine it's because since the guitar is playing that part in the actual song, we still want to maintain a little bit of accuracy - at least for audience sake.

What part is that ?
Audience would probably never notice it.

 

[bbao]

What part is that ?
Audience would probably never notice it.

Iconic guitar riffs in intros. One song that's permanent on our setlist for example is 'Mr Brightside'.
It definitely would not be the same if i played that intro riff on bass

 

[basseux]

Iconic guitar riffs in intros. One song that's permanent on our setlist for example is 'Mr Brightside'.
It definitely would not be the same if i played that intro riff on bass

I think it would be ok for me, if there was no guitar player in the band, but since there is one, I see no excuse not to play that, and that should be a good reason enough to find someone else.
At that point it looks more like a passive aggressive move.

In previous band the keyboardist didn't want to play the theme of peg. He said it was a saxophone, but so what ? Guitar or keyboard, one of them had to let go of the harmony and play that theme.
So I played part of it on bass in rehearsals, otherwise why even play that song ... Until we got horns players. I showed him later it was a clarinet playing it, it's on the Wikipedia page, but it didn't mattered, his ego already choosed it's side.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think it would be ok for me, if there was no guitar player in the band, but since there is one, I see no excuse not to play that, and that should be a good reason enough to find someone else.
At that point it looks more like a passive aggressive move.

In previous band the keyboardist didn't want to play the theme of peg. He said it was a saxophone, but so what ? Guitar or keyboard, one of them had to let go of the harmony and play that theme.
So I played part of it on bass in rehearsals, otherwise why even play that song ... Until we got horns players. I showed him later it was a clarinet playing it, it's on the Wikipedia page, but it didn't mattered, his ego already choosed it's side.

Anyone who is that rigid about arrangment isn't doing the music any favors. I'd dump his sorry butt.

My band plays a bunch of Steely Dan stuff with no horns. You don't need the exact instruments to evoke the flavor of a well known part. I play a horn part in My Old School and nobody has yet complained. I play a clavinet part and a horn part in Superstition. When did musicians become so rigid that they stopped having fun with arrangements? How is that even worth doing, if you're just painting by numbers? This is just beyond sad to me. I'd mumble something about a lack of music education in recent generations but nobody would care.

 

[basseux]

I showed him later it was a clarinet playing it

* a clavinet

 

[roccobass]

I think it would be ok for me, if there was no guitar player in the band, but since there is one, I see no excuse not to play that, and that should be a good reason enough to find someone else.
At that point it looks more like a passive aggressive move.

In previous band the keyboardist didn't want to play the theme of peg. He said it was a saxophone, but so what ? Guitar or keyboard, one of them had to let go of the harmony and play that theme.
So I played part of it on bass in rehearsals, otherwise why even play that song ... Until we got horns players. I showed him later it was a clarinet playing it, it's on the Wikipedia page, but it didn't mattered, his ego already choosed it's side.

You can't please some people unless you cave to them even if you know you're right. Especially to some whose minds are locked or just to say they're right. Good luck to you.

Had a row with a former lead singer/guitarist over a two note pull off in the song Smoke From a Distant Fire. I knew my part, but he had his own ideas. It went on for a 15 minute tizzy fit on his part. I said, ok fine, just to shut him up. The next time we played it and every other time I reverted back to my way. He never noticed. . So much wasted time and effort

 

[ewarren88]

He may be hesitant because he may not know if everyone is ready but this should help.

Great point! Our drummer has a bit of this, and it's not unfounded. 8 piece horn band with associated big footprint, fair share of hearing loss, and a BL who will regularly revise the set list in real time. Stage communication is a concern. Drummer is back there trying to get eye contact with everyone, watching horn players flip pages, someone grabbing a drink of water, etc. There's no obvious "all clear" sign so it can drag on. Grates on me because I've already glanced at the set list toward the end of the previous song and am ready to go. But drummer counting off before everyone is set results in an awful chorus of "WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT…" or else an ugly kickoff. Doesn't actually happen with any frequency, but the fear of it causes his overly cautious behavior.

Ask him if that's the issue. His concerns might be resolved easily if everyone individually offers a ready-to-go signal. Then he's reassured to be clear for takeoff.

 

[DirtDog]

Hi everyone,

I am the bass player for my band and we have been doing wedding gigs for ~ 4 years now. It is not our main jobs nor do we have constant gigs. I would say we average 15-25 gigs a year. We have all been friends for a while now and do not plan to switch up any players unless someone wants to quit.

Now to the problem:
For the whole 3-4 years that we have been gigging, the guitarist has 2 issues.
1. He relies on his ipad for charts for every song.
2. He hesitates to start every song that he is supposed to start, causing a delay in between songs rather than smooth transitions.

He is a great guitarist who has been playing for more than a decade now (ever since highschool). I have talked to him about both issues numerous times.
I have grown to accept him using an ipad for charts for every song (even though we have been playing majority of the songs for 3 years so I assumed he would have memorised it by now).
For the second issue however, I keep telling him that he should start immediately because even if someone happens to not be ready, he can repeat that first progression without it sounding weird or there being a long awkward silence.

We have recently increased our prices so I feel that, for the money that we're charging nowadays, we shouldn't be having long pauses between songs nor relying on ipads 99% of the time.
With that being said, I keep an ipad hidden behind me purely for the set list alone and only ever need to glance when we have to shorten the set list due to wedding events going over time.

So now my question:
Does anyone have suggestions for how I can help my guitarist get over these issues?
Or are my standards just too high for what is essentially a side hustle?

i wouldn't fret about the iPad.

The gaps between songs should be worked out in rehearsal. We're going through the same thing after not gigging for three years. Guitarist/BL says: "hey dirtdog, tell a dad joke". That's not gonna fly. Multiple guitar changes during a set, periodic tuning issues ( we play in altered tunings for some songs) and the odd broken string. I'm no George Carlin. I'd rather the drummer and I vamp on a tune while the guitarist readies himself. It's only half the time he starts a tune on his own.

after the minor train wrecks on our gig last weekend (I did tell the lamest joke I know - to make a point), I'm going to insist we work out these transitions ahead of time. Didn't help that we didn't get a final set list until about 12 hours before downbeat.

I'm at the point where I'm already anticipating the start of the next song on the setlist while we're hammering out the last four bars of a tune.

Otherwise I'm just not interested in gigging.

 

[DirtDog]

Great point! Our drummer has a bit of this, and it's not unfounded. 8 piece horn band with associated big footprint, fair share of hearing loss, and a BL who will regularly revise the set list in real time. Stage communication is a concern. Drummer is back there trying to get eye contact with everyone, watching horn players flip pages, someone grabbing a drink of water, etc. There's no obvious "all clear" sign so it can drag on. Grates on me because I've already glanced at the set list toward the end of the previous song and am ready to go. But drummer counting off before everyone is set results in an awful chorus of "WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT…" or else an ugly kickoff. Doesn't actually happen with any frequency, but the fear of it causes his overly cautious behavior.

Ask him if that's the issue. His concerns might be resolved easily if everyone individually offers a ready-to-go signal. Then he's reassured to be clear for takeoff.

The four-count does wonders to get everyone focused.

 

[Core Creek]

i wouldn't fret about the iPad.

The gaps between songs should be worked out in rehearsal. We're going through the same thing after not gigging for three years. Guitarist/BL says: "hey dirtdog, tell a dad joke". That's not gonna fly. Multiple guitar changes during a set, periodic tuning issues ( we play in altered tunings for some songs) and the odd broken string. I'm no George Carlin. I'd rather the drummer and I vamp on a tune while the guitarist readies himself. It's only half the time he starts a tune on his own.

after the minor train wrecks on our gig last weekend (I did tell the lamest joke I know - to make a point), I'm going to insist we work out these transitions ahead of time. Didn't help that we didn't get a final set list until about 12 hours before downbeat.

I'm at the point where I'm already anticipating the start of the next song on the setlist while we're hammering out the last four bars of a tune.

Otherwise I'm just not interested in gigging.

But not all bands rehearse. My current band did two gigs this month with zero rehearsals and I have ten coming up in September. The issue for me was getting my iPad set for the next song without much help as to what the next song was. The band has signals and such but being new, I don't know them. But I wasn't going to slow the band down… if they counted it off and I didn't come right in it wasn't the end of the world. I have plenty of time to figure out cues and such.

But this is what happens when set lists aren't followed. I prefer it to be somewhat fresh with songs pulled up after not being played for awhile. But with set lists of over 300 songs, an iPad is an important tool - especially when first joining a band.

The flip side is a rigid setlist. I played with a band February-July that played almost the same set of songs twice a week and it got old real fast.