Guitarist problems and suggestions to help the situation?

[Manticore]

I'm not necessarily opposed to music on stage. Originals, club bands, slick corporate bands, tributes, everyone should remember their parts. For a wedding band, it might be beneficial to have music on stage if you have hundreds of songs that you can pull out as a request. I play in an acoustic duet where we literally have hundreds of songs we'll play upon request. Our longest gig was a private event wherein we played just over eight hours, that's eight hours of playing not including breaks, and didn't play anything more than once. In a situation like that it's fantastic to have music on stage.

 

[eriky4003]

Won't comment on the tablet charts but I'd say the drummer gives him a beat (hi-hat) and let him step up. He may be hesitant because he may not know if everyone is ready but this should help.

 

[brianrost]

Every member of the band should be aware of what the next song is (unless a pause to speak to the audience is indicated on the list) and ready for the countoff. The member responsible for the countoff should be ready to start immediately unless another member indicates to wait for retuning, a string change, busted drum hardware, etc. Instrument switches should be marked on the list and only done during a designated pause.

The only unexpected gaps should be to respond to a request that's not already on the list.

Slightly OT: I'll mention that I know some songwriters who always have the lyrics in front of them...you can't remember your own song?

 

[Smooth_bass88]

Hi everyone,

I am the bass player for my band and we have been doing wedding gigs for ~ 4 years now. It is not our main jobs nor do we have constant gigs. I would say we average 15-25 gigs a year. We have all been friends for a while now and do not plan to switch up any players unless someone wants to quit.

Now to the problem:
For the whole 3-4 years that we have been gigging, the guitarist has 2 issues.
1. He relies on his ipad for charts for every song.
2. He hesitates to start every song that he is supposed to start, causing a delay in between songs rather than smooth transitions.

He is a great guitarist who has been playing for more than a decade now (ever since highschool). I have talked to him about both issues numerous times.
I have grown to accept him using an ipad for charts for every song (even though we have been playing majority of the songs for 3 years so I assumed he would have memorised it by now).
For the second issue however, I keep telling him that he should start immediately because even if someone happens to not be ready, he can repeat that first progression without it sounding weird or there being a long awkward silence.

We have recently increased our prices so I feel that, for the money that we're charging nowadays, we shouldn't be having long pauses between songs nor relying on ipads 99% of the time.
With that being said, I keep an ipad hidden behind me purely for the set list alone and only ever need to glance when we have to shorten the set list due to wedding events going over time.

So now my question:
Does anyone have suggestions for how I can help my guitarist get over these issues?
Or are my standards just too high for what is essentially a side hustle?

Fire him and find someone better. he'll get over it.

 

[LBS-bass]

I don't care about the iPad.

Here's the deal for that.

When I was in my 20's, I played music full time. I played 3-5 shows a week. Over twelve years that adds up to about 2500 shows. It was expected that we'd all have the material memorized, and over that many shows it wasn't hard to do so. Not having it memorized was a sign of amateurism.

Today there are very few players working a schedule like that. Most of us are playing 12 to 30 shows a year. Over twelve years that would be around 300 shows. A big difference.

When I first got back into music I was surprised by the proliferation of tablets and music stands, but I soon realized that the amount of time needed to memorize everything just isn't practical for most people given the amount of stage time we're all getting.

I play in a band with four other musicians; the drummer has a book, the other three members have tablets, and I am the only one who memorizes everything, and that's mainly because I have to since I can't see very well anymore. But we do just fine with those guys glancing at notes. Nobody's reading constantly, they are memory aids. And I really don't care what they do because they sound good, we sound good, and our audiences enjoy what we bring. That's what matters to me.

 

[Koshchei]

It is not our main jobs nor do we have constant gigs.

Without knowing what his main hustle is, and recognizing that his issues are comparatively minor -- work on transitions as a group -- I'd just not worry about it:

1) It's a wedding gig. Nobody's going to die if somebody can see an ipad;
2) It's a wedding gig. I get that it's a higher standard than a bar gig, but if the guests are there for you rather than the bride and groom, then there's a problem;
3) It's a wedding gig. It's not exactly like any of you are stretching yourselves musically or artistically.

 

[brianrost]

As for dead air, I've been learning lately that it's not the huge sin that some make it out to be- that's a DJ thing. In fact it might be a good thing, anticipation as to what song is next, and not appearing to be a machine up there.

It all depends on the band.

The best wedding band I ever experienced (maybe the only one I ever liked) pretty much played straight through each set with the only gaps being the drummer starting the count after the last note of the previous song ended. The dance floor was full all night long and they played a different style of music each set so that all age groups were catered to. The only talking was stuff like "this one goes out to<somebody in the bridal party>".

I saw Dwight Yoakam a few years back and his band did a similar thing, the first half dozen songs were played back to back before he spoke to the audience. The energy was ridiculous.

Now it doesn't have to be that way in all situations, I've been in dance bands where the dancers wanted to swap partners every song. So we just waited until it was clear the dancers were ready.

Playing with bar bands, I noticed early on that some bands put together sets where three songs at the top of the set and three at the bottom of the set were played back to back. In the middle, there would be gaps. The idea was to capture the attention of your audience and then make them wnat to stay for the next set. Using the same set of songs to open and close makes it easier for everyone to be able to play with no gaps.

I also was in bands where the set lists would indicate spots where someone should speak to the audience between songs, in fact putting their names on the list so members knew when to speak.

When it really becomes dead air is when it's just dead air. Anyone with a mike in front of them can start talking until the rest of the band is ready to go. The band shouldn't have to talk amongst themselves between every song!

On instrument switching

In bands where I doubled bass guitar and double bass, I would work out where I needed to switch and try to play three or four songs (or more, if possible) before switching again. I would organize the songs into three categories:

1. Must be played on BG
2. Must be played on DB
3. Can be played on either.

Category #3 was what made it work. I tried to get as much of the repertoire as possible under my fingers as possible on both instruments in order to minimize switching. Before each set I'd make sure everyone knew when I was going to switch so someone could talk. Any band member switching instruments should be able to do this.

 

[Topkat13]

If whoever is footing the bill aint bitch'n why worry?

 

[LBS-bass]

I saw Dwight Yoakam a few years back and his band did a similar thing, the first half dozen songs were played back to back before he spoke to the audience. The energy was ridiculous.

This is what I try to do with my band. String as many songs together as possible to reduce downtime and have clean transitions worked out to go right from one to the next.

 

[Core Creek]

I play drums, bass, guitar and percussion, and bass is the only instrument I use charts for. Why? Drums are easy for almost everything’s I ever play, percussion is hardly noticeable, and on guitar, unless there’s a specific part, if I’m not playing it’s not a dealbreaker.

But bass….? Not knowing a tune or how it goes is a disaster, and not playing is noticeable. I’ll concede at this point it is a bit of a crutch, BUT, in my defense, most bands I play bass for a) rarely rehearse and b) never follow a setlist. So a song gets called out I do need a few seconds to find my chart. Sure, there are some songs I know how to start (Brown Eyed Girl), but a lot of time there’s a lot of trying to communicate the next song with not much pre planning.

I joined a new band on bass and I needed to learn 85 songs in three weeks. A lot I’ve played before, but a lot I haven’t. I wouldn’t be able to do the gig without charts. But I definitely try not to bury my head in the chart.

I get the frustration from the OP. It seems to me that at the very least the guitar player get more time to anticipate the start of the next song. I agree, three years in, he probably should work on some memorization, but I know two years with one band I didn’t memorize much - with only a gig or two a month it was more effort than it was worth. With the new band, 2-3 gigs a week is enough incentive to get me to memorize more. Plus, there will probably be a core of 30 songs we play often. Maybe widdle the list to 30 and ask him to get more familiar with them, especially if he starts them… but I doubt he’s going to feel comfortable without his iPad.

 

[DWBass]

Can the drummer count him in?

 

[bbao]

Maybe I missed something here? I don't see the makeup of your band. 2 guitars, ...

We are a 5 piece band composing of 1 singer, 1 guitarist, 1 drummer, 1 keys, and me as bass. I'm not the band leader. Definitely would have opted to find someone better earlier on if that were the case.

I’ll share a recent experience that might help if you want press forward.
..

Good idea. I'll suggest that to the guitar player and see if he's up for it.

I taught guitar off and on now for 30 years. It sounds like your guitarist doesnt understand two things: how chord progressions are structured and the harmonized scale ( nashville numbering I, ii, iii.. etc)
...

Yeah, the guitarist actually wants to learn more theory stuff. It's only a matter of whether he can make time for himself

A question— what is his day job?
Also— what are the day jobs of the rest of the group?

Everyone is quite different. The guitarist is a mid level sales rep for a tech company - And I understand that this type of job can be stressing, making him probably not want to spend time after work practicing and memorizing. This is why I am somewhat understanding about the Ipad use. My main gripe is him focusing too much on the ipad while performing.

I'm a chemist with a second job at a supermarket. Both jobs end when I get home which is why I hold myself to a much higher standard in memorising everything.

Or, instead of rushing the guy into a train wreck or firing him,

he could just continue gigging with the guy.

or quit himself so a more appreciative bass player could enjoy being in a band that's been gigging regularly for four years.

It's not that I want to rush him or anything, I just feel that if we want to keep increasing our prices, we should be performing for that money's worth. We are currently the cheapest 5 piece band but want to work ourselves up to the professionals in our area.

The higher paid professionals in our area have everything memorised, and are so smooth with all of their transitions, getting the crowd going etc.

Honestly, if we did not intend to increase our prices and remain stagnant, wanting to improve would not be much of a issue to me. I don't want to be that band where a wedding couple hires us and thinks that they're not getting their money's worth in the end.

What you're describing sounds like a common problem with only 1-2 gigs a month. You're left with using personal woodshed time and rehearsals to work these things out. Mentioning this as a common cause and effect might help mitigate anyone taking any suggestions that follow personally.
...

Good means of attack on the subject. People have often told me that I can be a little too direct or an a## when confronting people. Perhaps this calm and team focused approach will be better to include everyone.

 

[51PRI]

I'm not necessarily opposed to music on stage...it might be beneficial to have music on stage...it's fantastic to have music on stage.

I agree. On stage is a great place to have music.

If whoever is footing the bill aint bitch'n why worry?

Isn't it good to strive for improvement in a band even if nobody, no customer, is complaining?

 

[Lgibjones]

It sounds like he’s terrified of making a mistake. Maybe help him address that fear?

a way to wean off charts is to memorize parts by singing them and then play by ear.

 

[Marko 1]

...
Isn't it good to strive for improvement in a band even if nobody, no customer, is complaining?

Sure, so long as you're not causing more/worse problems.

I don't think the OP suggested anything bad, but some of the suggestions here, like firing the guy or having someone else start the song to force the guy when he's not gonna be ready, is alarmingly ignorant.

 

[newwavefrank]

Slightly OT: I'll mention that I know some songwriters who always have the lyrics in front of them...you can't remember your own song?[/QUOTE]

I see this comment all the time, and while it seems to make sense, I actually think I understand why it would be harder to remember your own lyrics. When you write a song, you may go through dozens (or more) of rewrites before settling on the best lyrics you can. Remembering the last version may not be as easy as it would seem. If I have to sing Don't Stop Believing, I just sing it the same way I have heard it a thousand times, and it is the ONLY way I have ever heard it.

 

[brianrost]

When you write a song, you may go through dozens (or more) of rewrites before settling on the best lyrics you can. Remembering the last version may not be as easy as it would seem.

I also worked with a guy who would forget the chords and arrangements for his songs. He had to ask us before playing some of his songs. I've spoken with other people who have worked with him and they shared similar stories.

He did write some nice songs, though!

 

[retslock]

I’ve seen some major concerts where the artists used tele-prompt monitors with lyrics to help them through the set. The rock/pop field pays much more attention to this issue than most other musical presentations. I was involved for a couple of years with a large band with horns and the whole repertoire was written parts. Myself and the guitar player suggested we try to memorise the tunes and rehearse without the charts in an attempt to avoid the lack of an organic feel that can sometimes occur with reading bands. It was met with dismay. Some players could not imagine not having a chart in front of them. The idea never got up.
Dead air between songs is not good though. Try videoing the gigs to check how it comes across to the audience. View it together at rehearsal and discuss as a band what to do about it.

 

[retslock]

Slightly OT: I'll mention that I know some songwriters who always have the lyrics in front of them...you can't remember your own song?

I see this comment all the time, and while it seems to make sense, I actually think I understand why it would be harder to remember your own lyrics. When you write a song, you may go through dozens (or more) of rewrites before settling on the best lyrics you can. Remembering the last version may not be as easy as it would seem. If I have to sing Don't Stop Believing, I just sing it the same way I have heard it a thousand times, and it is the ONLY way I have ever heard it.

Exactly. My wife is a prolific songwriter and she sometimes forgets her own words. New songs are likely to suffer until they are worked in and that can take a while sometimes.

 

[BBQisgood]

My compliments on an honest, well-written,well-thought-out reply.

Everyone is quite different. The guitarist is a mid level sales rep for a tech company - And I understand that this type of job can be stressing, making him probably not want to spend time after work practicing and memorizing. This is why I am somewhat understanding about the Ipad use. My main gripe is him focusing too much on the ipad while performing.

I'm a chemist with a second job at a supermarket. Both jobs end when I get home which is why I hold myself to a much higher standard in memorising everything.

Sounds like his job is the main reason he doesn’t have much free time! These mid-level sales guys have to work 80hr weeks sometimes.

I look up to you for working two jobs plus the band. “Chemist” means lots of different jobs. My first degree was in chemistry and it ain’t easy. Sounds like you are quite busy, yourself.

Good means of attack on the subject. People have often told me that I can be a little too direct or an a## when confronting people. Perhaps this calm and team focused approach will be better to include everyone.

A good, honest reply. My respect to you. I’m going to give some honest feedback here.

I am a fiddler and mandolinist as well as a bass player. One of the reasons I quit music for a long time was this: A bandleader, singer, guitarist, etc. taking too much control of the situation or giving feedback on my (and others’) performance(s) when they weren’t able to match my (or others’) skill level.

I don’t want to come off like a jerk, but lots of times, the people with less skill tend to be the most vocal.

I doubt that’s you, but you might want to take a moment and make sure you aren’t fixating on the wrong problem. Who’s the best musician in the band?

Can you or could you do the bass equivalent on the songs he starts? Could you play his guitar intros and/or melodies on your bass? If you are criticizing him, you should be able to.

The higher paid professionals in our area have everything memorised, and are so smooth with all of their transitions, getting the crowd going etc.

Honestly, if we did not intend to increase our prices and remain stagnant, wanting to improve would not be much of a issue to me. I don't want to be that band where a wedding couple hires us and thinks that they're not getting their money's worth in the end.

Money has ruined lots of good situations for lots of good people. I understand the situation much better now.

edit: tl;dr— sure, guitarist’s habits may be a problem. Probably not the only problem. Money as a motivator had caused all sorts of problems with relationships.