- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
- 9,869
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
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Gun Club!
- Thread starter SpectorBass308
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Vigilance has it's place.
While H.R.45 may have little chance of being passed at this present time, nevertheless the attempt is made....this is not paranoia, but truth.
After spending six weeks on a jury, I decided to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. I'm with you guys. Here's a pic of my new CZ P-01.
OK, class is over and my fingerprints and photo are taken... just waiting on my permit in the mail. So, I've been searching for a good carry pistol.
I have a Sig P232 which is a .380 and a nice small size. I like shooting it. Very comfortable AND accurate well made machine.
I think I'd like something of a larger caliber... at least a 9mm and preferably .40 (my favorite). Compact size is very important to me... I don't to wear jackets in the summer.
My next choice would be a Sig P239 in .40 cal. I have not tried one out, and don't want to drop that much coin on something I might not like. Do any of you have experience with this pistol, and if so, what are it's pros and cons?
I have a Sig P232 which is a .380 and a nice small size. I like shooting it. Very comfortable AND accurate well made machine.
I think I'd like something of a larger caliber... at least a 9mm and preferably .40 (my favorite). Compact size is very important to me... I don't to wear jackets in the summer.
My next choice would be a Sig P239 in .40 cal. I have not tried one out, and don't want to drop that much coin on something I might not like. Do any of you have experience with this pistol, and if so, what are it's pros and cons?
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
- 9,869
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
I give you the pros and cons of the two you're trying to decide between..... The .40 will drop someone, the .380 might. I wouldn't carry a .380 unless there just wasn't any other choice....
Took possession of my S&W9VE a little over a week ago. One trip to the range so far, may go again tomorrow.
My next choice would be a Sig P239 in .40 cal. I have not tried one out, and don't want to drop that much coin on something I might not like. Do any of you have experience with this pistol, and if so, what are it's pros and cons?
I had a Sig 239 and loved it. If I was still reloading .40S&W and carried a double action pistol it would be the Sig 239; accurate, reliable and comfortable to carry. Excellent choice.
I'm actually moving away from my .40s and replacing them in-kind with either 9mm or .45 as appropriate. I have too many calibers in the house and I'm trying to narrow it down a little.
IMO 9mm ammunition technology has improved enough that much of the argument for civilian .40 use is moot. Besides, why carry a .40 when there are so many decent compact .45s out now?
IMO 9mm ammunition technology has improved enough that much of the argument for civilian .40 use is moot. Besides, why carry a .40 when there are so many decent compact .45s out now?
the truth is all duty-caliber pistols do a pretty poor job of putting down bad guys. We only use them due to portability and concealability. I've recently read stories of police shootings where bad guys were hit 15 or more times Including in the torso with both .40 and .45 using hollow points and STILL not going down.
However, the FBI developed a series of tests that all handguns and handgun ammo must pass to be considered for duty usage. Many other law enforcement organizations have adopted this FBI test protocol. The .380 will not pass these tests no matter what ammo is used. It simply doesn't have the penetration required. Not enough energy to get through. Incapacitation is caused by one of the following things: a bullet damaging the central nervous system, a massive loss of blood due to the cutting and tearing of arteries and organs or a psychological reaction to be shot. The .380 certainly HAS killed many people but according to the FBI protocol it doesn't have the consistent penetration required to do the above things on any body at any angle.
Long story short - I agree with pacman in the end. Go with 9mm, .40 or .45. All three have about the same record of incapacitation in police street shootings when using quality hollow point ammo. For a very small pistol I love my tack-driving Kahr PM9 which is about the size of my palm and disappears under a tshirt. It's also available in .40 and .45.
do not forget that the .357 mag equals or exceeds the performance of all of the aforementioned calibers and comes in a very portable and reliable package...
Hiya,
These are my rotation of carry pistols. All 45's. I'm a former law enforcement officer, I know what kind of bad is out there, I carry something that will end the conflict fast and on my terms. (Although I have been known to slip a 22 or 32 pocket pistol in my boot for those 'no carry' social events.) I carry these in a Milt Spark's summer special 2, basically an inside the pants, strong side, Mexican carry. I also carry a spare mag in a Sparks holder on my weak side, Mexican carry, just in case.
All 3 of these have been modified for street duty; 6.5Lb triggers, large sights with plenty of light on the side of the front blade, slides and barrels refitted for total feeding and ejection reliability, solid bushings and press in firing pin retainers.
Main Carry pistol: Colt Commander, steel frame, Novak carry sights, street trigger and reliability package.
Full size carry pistol: Colt Gvt model. My former IPSC 'limited pistol' from the early 90's. Bill from C&S did all the work.
Backup full size: Mid '80's Colt Gvt. model "strike gun". The UAW went on strike at Colt in 1984 and the managers started putting together guns, they were a mix-match of parts they had laying around. this one has a 70 series combat gvt frame with an 80 series gvt slide. I bought it new in 84 so I know it's real.
Tom
Edit: For those who asked, the grips on the Commander and tu-tone are Hogue's. I met the Father and Son at the Masters in 1991, ended up getting into a 2 hour conversation about lighter colored, highly grained or figured woods. They offered to make a couple sets in tulipwood, these are them.
These are my rotation of carry pistols. All 45's. I'm a former law enforcement officer, I know what kind of bad is out there, I carry something that will end the conflict fast and on my terms. (Although I have been known to slip a 22 or 32 pocket pistol in my boot for those 'no carry' social events.) I carry these in a Milt Spark's summer special 2, basically an inside the pants, strong side, Mexican carry. I also carry a spare mag in a Sparks holder on my weak side, Mexican carry, just in case.
All 3 of these have been modified for street duty; 6.5Lb triggers, large sights with plenty of light on the side of the front blade, slides and barrels refitted for total feeding and ejection reliability, solid bushings and press in firing pin retainers.
Main Carry pistol: Colt Commander, steel frame, Novak carry sights, street trigger and reliability package.
Full size carry pistol: Colt Gvt model. My former IPSC 'limited pistol' from the early 90's. Bill from C&S did all the work.
Backup full size: Mid '80's Colt Gvt. model "strike gun". The UAW went on strike at Colt in 1984 and the managers started putting together guns, they were a mix-match of parts they had laying around. this one has a 70 series combat gvt frame with an 80 series gvt slide. I bought it new in 84 so I know it's real.
Tom
Edit: For those who asked, the grips on the Commander and tu-tone are Hogue's. I met the Father and Son at the Masters in 1991, ended up getting into a 2 hour conversation about lighter colored, highly grained or figured woods. They offered to make a couple sets in tulipwood, these are them.
I'm with you, while 9mm in military ball ammo is not a good man stopper, a modern 9mm expanding round is very effective with good shoot placement. Both the .40 and the .357 sig have a bit more jump in their recoil then either the .45 which has more "thump then thud" or the 9. I believe it is much easier to score good hits with either a 9 or a .45 then the .40 or .357 sig. And good shoot placement is more important then stopping power. If your not scoring hits where it counts what your hitting them with matters a lot less. Also I'm concerned that at real short distances the extra speed of the 40 or 357 sig could cause over penetration and deflection issues.
In the past 1911 designs with very short barrels have had reliability issues because the reduced slide mass negatively affects cycling. I cannot speak specifically about the EXP.
+1 - I personally don't trust less than 4" on a .45ACP 1911 platform gun for that reason. IMO the barrel angle gets too radical when the slide is in full recoil. I think the EMP in 9mm may have enough different geometry to be OK, kind of like the old Star BM.
That's why I have the hots for a LW Officer's size frame with a 4"-4.25" top end, a SIG RCS in particular:
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That RCS is a sweet!
SIG rules. My old 226 has never hiccuped once. Maybe the 229 with the new aluminum grips is a better choice for a smaller format. Besides I am so use to the SIG format (decocking lever etc.) I don't know why I would consider going to the 1911 style pistol. About $300 less too. 
Many years ago, the department armorer, (a Marine armorer that served on the Marine Corps Pistol team) explained the issues with short barrel 1911's. I will try to relate it as best I can after 15 years.
While that is part of the issue with short topends on 1911 platforms another major part of the issue of poor reliability is the combined issues of short stroke travel, less reciprocating mass, high recoil spring rates and it's associated short "out of battery" time.
In a full or commander length slide setup, the slide travels longer than in a short slide or "officers" length. This is obvious, shorter parts move less. However the shorter length also unlocks the slide from the barrel sooner, (related to the angle of tip on the barrel, freeing the slide slightly sooner, imparting less energy to it) The slide continues to the rear very quickly, ejecting the spent case and reaching either the end of stroke by contacting the stop on the frame OR expending the energy imparted on it by the recoil impulse. (This is a very important part of shooting pistols with high rate recoil springs, if you don't hold them firm enough, the recoil energy that would normally be stored in the recoil spring and slide are dissipated in your hand and arm resulting in less reliable cycling, short, light pistols are the least forgiving of a weak grip or poor shooting form.)
As the slide begins its forward motion, the next cartridge 'should' be ready to be stripped from the mag and fed under the extractor by the breach face. (All these motions are timed in thousands of a second. In the 5" 1911, these events take place in the longest time span, the Commander, the middle ground and the short barrel lengths, the quickest.)
If the short slide has short-stroked from either a slightly under power round or a weak grip, the slide may not clear the rear of the mag well and no fresh round will be picked up resulting in the hammer falling on an empty chamber. If the speed of the short slide has over run the ability of the mag spring to push up a fresh round to the top of the feed lips in time for the breach face to contact and strip it, the same empty chamber will result. The third scenario is where the short slide returns with excessive speed and when the fresh round is almost at the top of the feed lips, but not contacting them to provide resistance to slow down the feed cycle, the breach face strikes the round with such force that the round bounces forward free of the extractor and fails to align sufficiently to allow entrance to the chamber resulting in a stoppage.
OK, I know it's wordy but I related it as best I could from memory.
Tom
The Sigs are very good quality guns. They had some QC hiccups about ten years ago but they seem to have that licked. I would also look at the new 250 with the interchangeable modules it seems like a cool concept. My only beef with the Sig type guns is I'm not a fan of DA/SA triggers, I prefer the trigger pull to be consistent from shot to shot. I also have seen some safety issues (mostly police carry) where an officer discharged one round and then holstered a SA / no safety weapon. While I'm personally a 1911 guy, the Sig and H K are certainly classic quality pieces
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I've got a Sig P-220 in .45 and have a P-245 on the way. The 220 points very well, is as accurate as I am and will eat anything I feed it. My carry gun, however, is a Glock 23 in 40 S&W. It will also eat anything I feed it, 13 Rds. vs. 8 and it's smaller and slimmer. Of all my handguns my Sig is by far the best feeling and shooting. To be fair though, all my others are Glocks.
I love Sigs but they print more than a Glock or 1911 on me. I can conceal the Glock with a loose shirt, not so with my Sig. Even the P-245 which is a fairly compact gun is as wide as my 220 which which makes it print on me. 1911s also carry very well because, despite their size they are slim guns and can be carried closely to the body.
My only beef with the Glock is the grip. Kinda blocky and if I don't pay attention to my grip they they don't line up well for me.
I love Sigs but they print more than a Glock or 1911 on me. I can conceal the Glock with a loose shirt, not so with my Sig. Even the P-245 which is a fairly compact gun is as wide as my 220 which which makes it print on me. 1911s also carry very well because, despite their size they are slim guns and can be carried closely to the body.
My only beef with the Glock is the grip. Kinda blocky and if I don't pay attention to my grip they they don't line up well for me.
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