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Double Bass Gut Strings: Are They Worth It To Try? (part I)

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#221
Progress report:

Still loving the guts. I've been playing around with amplification.

Part I

I've said before that I'm using the Stat-B for a pickup with gut. I've been using it with a Focus and a downfiring AI speaker and it sounds great. It sounded so good right away that I figured the Stat worked with gut effortlessly and would sound good anywhere and on anything. Boy was I wrong.

With no gigs this week (3 next week), I went to the local jam to goof around, hang and play some tunes. There were amps at the session so I didn't bring my rig. I plugged into a Clarus (pretty close to a Focus) but it went into a front firing speaker (not sure what it was). Sounded horrible. There was none of the warm, fat gut sound. It sounded like I had plastic strings (even with the mids turned way down). It was BAD and not bad meaning good. Just bad.

Afterward, I went home and tried the Focus with a Wizzy 10 to experiment with a front firing speaker. It was significantly better than the unknown speaker at the jam but it still had a plastic-y character to it. Even with the mids turned down, it was just ok. I plugged the AI cabinet back in and it sounded amazing.

So the upshot is I've been expounding on how great the Stat-B is with gut strings. It turns out to be great with the right combination of gear but it might not be so great with other gear. Should've expected that result.

Part II

Started experimenting with the AMT. I have the tailpiece mount and I run the mic up through the bridge legs. Capsule is as close to the table as I can get it without touching. Run directly into the Focus it sounds really good. As an experiment, I tried running it through the Schertler Dyn-B Preamp (I forget what it's called) and then into the Focus. In the living room, it sounds fantastic. Very natural and I can get an intense amount of volume before feedback. I was running the microphone louder than I usually run the Stat-B on gigs and no feedback so it SHOULD be gig useable. I have to wait until next Friday to try it out on a gig though. Hopefully, the living room experiment results will hold for the gig.

I'll report back.

How is everyone else doing?

mark
 
#222
Hi Folks,

I've read through this & every other thread I could find about guts at least once, to learn all that I could from your experiences; because for me the answer is a big yes...gut is worth the hassle.

First, my background ( I joined TB a few years ago, but don't recall ever posting): I am pretty new to bass. I've played music for 20+ years and decided it might be "cool" to have a bass because it possesses a sound that really moves me. I also feel compelled to learn a lot of instruments enough so I can tell others what I want them to do for me. For the last few years I've owned a bass, without really being a bass player. Four months ago I committed to really learning the thing & have begun taking lessons for the first time on any instrument in my life. I am abruptly making bass my "main instrument." I now practice 3- 5 hours a day, 5- 10 hours per day on the weekends.

The sound in my head is very old-school. My ears are all over the old Slam, Blanton, early Israel Crosby, Walter Page...plus the blues guys like Big Crawford, Willie Dixon & Ransom Knowling. As much as I think PC, Ray Brown & LaFaro are cool, even they are sometimes too modern for me, although I like the sounds they put out. I'm playing mostly pizz, practicing a ton (& want to be able to perform eventually) arco, and a bit of slapping.

I have the flexibility to play only what I want...I don't depend on being versatile enough to fit into multiple situations. At my stage of life, It's only worth it for me to play the sound inside my head.

My current setups:
1. King Moretone with Eudoxa E, plain Clef A, D & G. The D & G both sound quite good on this bass. I'm not sure about the A yet. I just had all 4 plain guts put on, but the E was beyond useless! I replaced it with an older Eudoxa I had laying around, it's just okay but the winding has one small separation.

2. Kay M-1 with Eudoxa E & A, Efrano plain gut D & G. The Efranos are not nearly as resonant as the Clefs on the King. The E Eudoxa is brand new & kind of vanilla so far...not much of an impression on me yet. The A is old and has winding/buzzing issues. I put that on last week because I couldn't bow the Eurosonics I had on the E & A well.

I now am looking to upgrade. I need an A for the Kay & probably an E for the King. I'd also like to try an upgrade the D & G on the Kay. I've yet to decide which route to take, but I am not willing to stray from gut. I love the sound, I love the feel (of plain gut) & will learn properly on gut from the beginning. I am of course deciding between DD & Gamut; multiple threads on the subject won't make my decision easy...I guess that some experimentation is in order. Thanks to all who have shared their gut experiences previously.
 
#226
Kevin Hsieh said:
Quick progress report:

Same strings, but got an H-Clamp and am running the SM57beta into the house at my regular gig. sounds great!

DavidAaronCarter - I'm playing on a Xuechang Sun as well! If yours is anything like mine, it'll really respond nicely to the change.
Click to expand...

Kevin!

I did a similar thing at a gig last night. We tried to get an authentic bebop-sound and my guts and velvets really did great!

Anyway, I had a SM57 pointed just above the f-hole in a regular mic stand into the house. It sounded very true and not much leakage so there was plenty of volume without feedback!

EDIT: I think someone recorded it on a H2 or something. Maybe I can post it sometime...
 
#227
So I got my bass back from the shop and got my unknown gut D + G strung up
My immediate reaction was absolute hatred, really noisy and strange
I jacked the action up a little more and that cleared up some of the buzz/string noise
I like the size of them, its nice to really tug at
Tension (or lack of) doesn't really bug me, it's a welcome change actually
Sounded really good when I threw on an Aebersold (man I need near-by drummers)
As they settle I'll throw a mic down and I've got a couple jams this weekend
 
#228
davidAaronCarte said:
So I got my bass back from the shop and got my unknown gut D + G strung up
My immediate reaction was absolute hatred, really noisy and strange
I jacked the action up a little more and that cleared up some of the buzz/string noise
I like the size of them, its nice to really tug at
Tension (or lack of) doesn't really bug me, it's a welcome change actually
Sounded really good when I threw on an Aebersold (man I need near-by drummers)
As they settle I'll throw a mic down and I've got a couple jams this weekend
Click to expand...

-a couple of things...

1. The strings will settle in but it takes time. Don't get frustrated and plan on tuning between tunes for next few weeks. Mine have been on since late March and they keep getting better and better. They took a few weeks to stretch out but now, unless there is a drastic temperature change, they stay pretty much in tune. The sound has gotten much more defined in the last 3 weeks or so as well.

2. To play gut effectively, you have to get used to the touch which is very different than steel. I've found that you need to completely relax your left hand (while this is also important with steel, it is absolutely critical with gut). It doesn't take much strength to finger a note so it is really important not to put any more energy than you need to. When I practice, I periodically do a body check on my left hand. If there is ANY tension, I concentrate on making it relax. This alone will do wonders for your gut chops.

The right hand is a balancing act. Too light of a pluck and there isn't much there but if you pluck too hard, the sound also kind of craps out. Plucking at the end of fingerboard, again while good with steel, is critical with gut. It took me about a month of seriously heavy playing to start to get the hang of the right hand. At 7 weeks out, I feel like I've mostly got it in the sense that I'm getting consistent now. Early on, it was a 50-50 shot that I'd fall on my face soloing. Now, I rarely do.

When I first started playing gut, I loved the way it sounded walking lines but I got frustrated soloing; many times I wished I still had steel strings to solo with. At 7 weeks that has all gone away. I LOVE soloing with gut strings. The sound has a vocal quality that steel just doesn't have and once I got the touch happening, the technical end just fell into place. I can solo better with gut strings now than I ever could with steel.

I've got three studio sessions booked between May 16th and May 29th. I'll post a bunch of clips on my Myspace page when we're done.

mark
 
#229
Mark, thanks for posting on your progress. For those of us who've toyed with the idea of going gut, it's great to see a real time diary. The specific technical details you include in your posts really help to illuminate the learning process.

It seems that the way to do it is to just take the leap and damn the torpedoes. Without devoting the time you're investing, it would be hard to assess the potential of making the change.

It's the one thing that I still want to check out, before I check out. :D
 
#230
A while back i had gut's on my bass (D-G ) ,it took a while to get use to the feel and the sound. I like the steel's better for sound and comfort , i had a problem with pain in my left hand when i used the guts, i had to adjust my attack when i had them on.
I dig in the bass "aka" Ray brown ,Sam Jones for that big sound so i never went back to gut's after that.
 
#231
davidAaronCarte said:
So I got my bass back from the shop and got my unknown gut D + G strung up
My immediate reaction was absolute hatred, really noisy and strange
I jacked the action up a little more and that cleared up some of the buzz/string noise
I like the size of them, its nice to really tug at
Tension (or lack of) doesn't really bug me, it's a welcome change actually
Sounded really good when I threw on an Aebersold (man I need near-by drummers)
As they settle I'll throw a mic down and I've got a couple jams this weekend
Click to expand...

I hated the strings when I did a couple rehearsals on them the day I had them put on. I wanted to take them off immediately. But my friends convinced me to stick with it, and now i'm sold.

Keep at it. report back!
 
#232
Marcus Johnson said:
Mark, thanks for posting on your progress. For those of us who've toyed with the idea of going gut, it's great to see a real time diary. The specific technical details you include in your posts really help to illuminate the learning process.

It seems that the way to do it is to just take the leap and damn the torpedoes. Without devoting the time you're investing, it would be hard to assess the potential of making the change.

It's the one thing that I still want to check out, before I check out. :D
Click to expand...

I've been following the EP Weich thread and it sounds like you've found something there. I've been toying with the idea of putting the EP Weichs on my steel string bass which really hasn't been used since going gut in March. I've pulled it out and messed around with it a couple of times but after playing gut, the Spiros just sound puny which is funny because I'd always thought of Mittels as being strong and substantial.

I think if you do go gut, you have to jump in with both feet and just immerse yourself in it. Early on, you have to accept that there are things you could do with steel that don't work all that well with gut and you won't have a lot of the tricks you've developed over the years at your disposal. At your level, though, you'll start to figure out pretty quickly what works with gut and you'll find the things that gut does really well that steel doesn't. That was my path. At the same time, the strings were settling in and the bass was adjusting to the new tension. There was a nice point for me at about 6 weeks where the strings, the bass, my conception of what I could do with gut, my touch and my technical ability to get around all came together. Now it's gravy. It's like I'm 17 and in love for the first time.

mark
 
#233
Buogon said:
A while back i had gut's on my bass (D-G ) ,it took a while to get use to the feel and the sound. I like the steel's better for sound and comfort , i had a problem with pain in my left hand when i used the guts, i had to adjust my attack when i had them on.
I dig in the bass "aka" Ray brown ,Sam Jones for that big sound so i never went back to gut's after that.
Click to expand...

I had the same problem with my left hand which is why I so emphasized the importance of totally relaxing your left hand. You don't need much pressure with gut and, in fact, using too much left hand pressure will, in addition to causing pain, stifle your movement.

I don't know what the deal with the big sound is. Maybe you had a problem with your bass. My sound is way bigger with gut.

In interest of full disclosure, this is my second go-round with gut. I tried it a couple of years ago but didn't make the full commitment and ended up giving up. You really have to commit to it or it won't work. It is really like learning a new but related instrument.

mark

mark
 
#234
Jam today but I don't feel comfortable enough with the guts to give at her (playin' with new people and don't feel like playing like a total slob :p)
The big test will be a rehearsal I have for a vocal recital on Sunday I think
My impression so far is that, like my soon-to-be-replaced Underwood, is that I'd love it on a ply bass, but it loses what I loved about the sound of my new carved instrument
 
#235
Okay, jerks. I'm in...for a penny. I've got a borrowed Gamut G on Isla with an otherwise complete set of Spirocore Weichs.

Need to wait until pitch stablizes and I've got a rehearsal and a piano duo thing next week to test out the sound.

Early impressions:

1) Fun as s*** to play. Bad tactile match with weichs. I have a D also on loan if that I could put on too, but then I'll be looking for something to replace the E and A with. Not sure I want to go that far, but I'll give it a chance to suduce me.

2) I love the feel and bounce and bloom.

3) Could bow it with some practice. I ran a few scales and there are some perils with bowing them, especially the transition from neighboring Spriocores, but it could certainly be done.

4) I initially like the sound, but I expect it to change as it settles in. I also suspect that I may not like the sound in the mix. We'll see.

5) I'm no novice to winding up strings on the DB, but it's whole different experience with and unwound gut. Kept me on my toes.

I guess it was envitable that I try it. We'll see what happens.

Buy the way, it's been in John's string box for a year or so and it does seem a little dry. I know there is some type of oil that can be applied. Someone remind me what will and won't work.

Troy
 
#237
Man. I thought for sure it would be the Evah Weichs that would get you before the Guts.

You can never tell what it will take to bring a good man down.

Baby oil if you want to smell like a baby, olive oil if you wanna smell like an Italian or a Greek. There is Walnut oil if you wanna smell like a hippie vegetarian, or you could always do some 10W30, not bathe, and smell like a grease monkey.
 
#239
You know, the thing is that I've really come to love Spirocores. The clarity and complexity is just unparalleled. It's been so long since I've lived with them that I had forgotten how great they could sound. I'm still having physical trouble with tension and I HATE wirey G strings. 3rd set when I'm digging hard into a guitar string, life sucks. It's not specifically the sound, I just don't like feel.

EP Weichs may actually get me. A fatter string that had the bounce and flexibility of Spirocore weichs would be great. Going from EP Regulars to Spirocores, though. The EPs sound like a hose wrapped in a sweater. They are just so indistinct sounding and now that I have spirocore goodness in my ears, I doubt that I could adjust to them again. I reading about weichs having more clarity, but I'm going to wait to hear some clips.

If I thought I could handle Spirocore Mittels, I'd probably be okay, but my body says no. I'm sketpical of the guts in action out in the world, but we'll see. I do love that sound in a controlled environment and I think they will be friendly on my body.

If this is a failed experiment, I may try the Spiro Weich G again. If I could get used to it, I'd probably be better off.

What the world needs is Superflexible Weichs. Between Spirocore Weichs in gauge and tension. I wonder why Thomastik has never tried that?

Gonna give guts a fair shot and I have you all to blame, especially Kevin for having me sit in on his bass, which I felt like I could have played a 24 fund raiser on. John for loaning me the Gamuts and I think maybe Chris for being the former owner of them? I'm not sure who John got them from but you're all a bunch of dealers and enablers and I hate you/I love you, no I hate you all, you're ruining my life. I love you guys.

EDIT: I actually have some Walnut Oil in the kitchen...this is the Pacific NW after all.
 
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