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Double Bass Gut Strings: Are They Worth It To Try? (part I)

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#282
Marcus Johnson said:
Bob... for me, the "sonically underneath" gut thing is exemplified by the sound I hear from PC, Wilber Ware, Doug Watkins, early Ray, Mingus, Oscar Pettiford.... where it seems the the bass is really pushing all the music up from the bottom.... as opposed the the more modern steel sound, where the bass seems to sit more in the middle of the mix, in a more interactive role in many cases. That's probably oversimplifying it a bit.
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There's nothing "oversimplifying" about it. That's pretty much exactly it. I think the "interactive" part means "getting in each other's way". I was more interactive last night on gut than I usually am with steel because I didn't feel like I was talking over or through anyone else. It really was an eye opening experience.

mark
 
#283
Uncletoad said:
That is the sexiness of the Gut experience. Occupying a space that is all it's own even when things get dense.

It's what makes them compelling to me even moreso than playing by themselves.

If I just walked behind things---or rather underneath things all the time there is no better setup. They are very sweet for country and bluegrass for the same reasons.

They are just a huge ****ing pain in the ass though. I can't express how annoyed I'd get at some gigs when I couldn't get them to stop drifting or I couldn't tame the mud or even tried to get a decent bowed vibe from them.

Maybe I'd feel different with the whole set...or if I had more skill with the bow...or whatever.

One of these days I'll try them on the AQ. I haven't gone there yet cause I don't want to like it and then have to live with that PITA again.....
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This really falls into the category of everyone's experience is different.

The one thing I've noticed is the guts always pretty much sound the same regardless of venue which might be because I use so little amplification with them. Usually just a little bit for presence and maybe a little more if I'm doing a lot of soloing. Spiros drove me crazy because they were SO dependent on venue. A nice warm venue and they sounded great. A bright room, not so much. That might be because I was much more dependent on amplification with Spiros. I don't think the guts are that much louder than the Spiros but they have a much larger presence unamplified. I'm also playing pretty much exclusively jazz with really good sidemen. If I were playing with cranked Telecasters, I'm sure my experience would be significantly different.

My experience is also limited to from late March until now so maybe my tune will change as we go into winter but once my strings stretched out, they pretty much stabilized. Outside of a major temperature change, they stay mostly in tune. In my practice room, I rarely need to tune before practicing. I check it but it usually still in tune from yesterday.

mark
 
#284
calivox said:
There's nothing "oversimplifying" about it. That's pretty much exactly it. I think the "interactive" part means "getting in each other's way". I was more interactive last night on gut than I usually am with steel because I didn't feel like I was talking over or through anyone else. It really was an eye opening experience.

mark
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That's a good way to put it. And then, someone like Scott LaFaro comes along, and proves that you can be as interactive as you like on guts, given the talent and the musical sensibility. And Mingus! Forget about it!

One example that I forgot to mention earlier is the sound of Joe Comfort on the early Nat Cole and Sinatra sides. Maybe that's the first bass playing that got inside my ear.... the way that bass sat in those arrangements still sounds spot on to me.
 
#285
Marcus Johnson said:
That's a good way to put it. And then, someone like Scott LaFaro comes along, and proves that you can be as interactive as you like on guts, given the talent and the musical sensibility. And Mingus! Forget about it!

One example that I forgot to mention earlier is the sound of Joe Comfort on the early Nat Cole and Sinatra sides. Maybe that's the first bass playing that got inside my ear.... the way that bass sat in those arrangements still sounds spot on to me.
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Lafaro, of course, is still the best at it. I can't think of anyone who has done it better and we have had 48 years of post-Lafaro playing to work on it with Lafaro as an example. HE had to come up with it. AND he did it when he was still a baby. He died at 25. I don't think I had mastered nose picking at 25 much less bass playing.

I have to check out Joe Comfort. I don't know his work.

mark
 
#287
calivox said:
I have to check out Joe Comfort. I don't know his work.

mark
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You probably do. Sinatra's "Songs for Swingin Lovers", "Swing Easy", "A Swingin Affair", We Small Hours". He's all over those sessions.

If the bass sounds cool it's probably him.

He and Blanton in addition to LaFaro would be my benchmark o Guts.

Everything you've all said about guts is true but live with them long enough and I know you'll have a bunch of hair pulling moments. Hardly any of the old school guys stayed with Guts after steel showed up and it wasn't just because it was a bandwagon thing.

We have this conversation around here every couple of years it seems. All the same it makes me wanna go back again.

....Don't make me pull out my Guts you bastards!
 
#291
calivox said:
Lafaro, of course, is still the best at it. I can't think of anyone who has done it better and we have had 48 years of post-Lafaro playing to work on it with Lafaro as an example. HE had to come up with it. AND he did it when he was still a baby. He died at 25. I don't think I had mastered nose picking at 25 much less bass playing.



mark
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Holy ****ing **** on a Ritz cracker.....

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN4CrJ9lyzE&feature=related
 
#297
calivox said:
That's some resume. Yeah, I've heard a bunch of those. I wonder why he's never been on my radar? I've got to do some homework.

mark
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We did a thread about him not to long ago when several of us were ranting about the great bass playing on the Riddle/Sinatra sides.

Swung his ass off.

Great tone.
 
#298
Uncletoad said:
Everything you've all said about guts is true but live with them long enough and I know you'll have a bunch of hair pulling moments. Hardly any of the old school guys stayed with Guts after steel showed up and it wasn't just because it was a bandwagon thing.
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I've wondered about the old guys never going back. We'll see. That was a lot of years ago and I wonder what other mitigating factors might be involved. Most of those guys developed a signature sound after going with steel and amplifiers that they might have been reluctant to abandon for professional reasons even if they liked gut better and to my knowledge, none of them tried amplifying gut. Steel is easier to maintain and is significantly cheaper both strong considerations if you spend a lot of time on the road. Plus, Andreas' experience with Artones aside, the word from guys like Ken Smith is the quality of gut nowadays totally eclipses the quality of gut strings from the '50s and '60s.

I love the sound so much that I'd be willing to put up with a lot of crap. It's like after playing for decades I've finally found MY sound. Just about everything I do works better now. My soloing style works better with gut. I love the way it sits in the overall mix when I'm comping. I love the way it is less defined and less in your face. I can play background figures and keep them in the background. On the negative side, I can't muscle through loud pianists, guitarists and drummers now when soloing so I'm at their mercy. So far, everyone has been very cool about opening space up for me when I solo though.

I keep a spare full set of Gamuts on the shelf for emergencies and if the wrapped A and E go south in the low humidity of winter, I'll try a Garbo A and E for the winter. I'm seriously committed to this project!

mark
 
#300
calivox said:
There's nothing "oversimplifying" about it. That's pretty much exactly it. I think the "interactive" part means "getting in each other's way". I was more interactive last night on gut than I usually am with steel because I didn't feel like I was talking over or through anyone else. It really was an eye opening experience.
Click to expand...

I admit I'm not into playing on guts, but I have to wonder aloud how, if interacting can be seen as "getting in each other's way", this could possibly the fault of the string rather than the player. I'm certainly willing to admit that different setups would make a player play differently, but if a player is in the way, it's on the player IMO.
 
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